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I just got out from a double tourney. I played a team with chaos space marines and we got third place (1 win 2 draws 1 loss - the win was an absolute epic game i`ll do a battle repot on it) but first 2 places were taken by 2 teams both with a tyranid player. both tyranid players got one of the meanest combination i ever saw:
hive tyrant with toxin sacs and 2 x twin linked devourers.
2 tyrant guards with lash whips.
The winner has extra carapace also on the tyrant.
So this is a CC beast with 2 assault 6 weapons twin linked and living ammo on them on S5.
I wounder how can i combat such a beast which is backed up by 2-5 shooting carnifexes with barbled stranglers and venom cannons. and doing this while evading outflanking genestealers
Emp just beat a similar list. Read his report in the 1850 Tourney list post. I hate the stupid dakka fex's. Most people will tell you that fire prisms work pretty well against em, and fire dragons as well. If you run bright lances they can help too.
I've had reasonable luck killing the tyrrants and scything claw fexes with shining spears as well. I have a pretty hard time taking down the shooty fexes though. The best way to deal with em is to make em walk across the board taking a turn or two of shooting from the falcons or prisms or whatever, or use your mobility to kill the troop choices on the board.
Unfortunately in the game with the tourney winner i got anihilation mission. He had no troops in turn 3 but from then the keeper of secrets, the 2 carnifexes, fiends of slaanesh and the tyrant cornered the chaos space marines.(winner had a tyranid/daemon list). In turn 5 when the game finished was 8-6 for him and he would have easily take another killpoint from a chaos rhino and maybe another one from some pagues marines still lurking around on foot.
We got hit badly by bad rolls and insane saving from enemies (the keeper of secrets saved 6 invulnerables(from 8 ) in the round he entered the game).
i got pretty dissapointed by the prisms as infantery killing units. in all 4 games performed badly.
MC's really aren't that much of an issue with the right troops.
Unless it's a special T7 fex if you doom and charge with banshee's you should kill it before it even strikes by averaging 4.5 wounds, larger Fire Dragon squads will do the same and are probably a good bet against the Tyrant/Guard combo as they generate more like 6 wounds from 10.
D-Cannons are another classic as they pack enough firepower to give MC's pause with enough blast carnage to blow holes in infantry squads and all this from out of line of sight though they may not be the best here due to how I'd suggest you fight.
War Walkers with Lance/Starcannons while pricy can also rack up the kills, though they will be quite vulnerable to return fire.
Falcons with Pulse/Starcannon/Shuricannon make tasty MC killers as well with a decent volley of low AP shots with more survivability than Walkers.
Lastly Dark Reapers can be handy, they'll murder the stealers when they show their face and any elite fex/tyrant guard will find their 3+ saves woefully inadequate but they will struggle against the more meaty MC's
MC's are also one of those great occasions when you can take Rangers/Pathfinders and have them earn their keep in the increasingly mech/horde world of 40k as the double rend chance can really make those 2+ saves irrelevant.
If your opponent is outflanking with any kind of numbers, which in this case several squads of scuttling stealers is likely quite a few points, then you need to push the advantage. If he's got 2-400 points off the board outflanking then you need to get aggressive and drive your troops right up the centre out of charge range of the board edges and punish him for coming to the fight shorthanded. If you stayed more than 18" from the board edge it will be at least turn 3 before his stealers can effect the battle, more than enough time for you to leave several smouldering MC corpses lying around the place.
"ask not the Eldar a question, for he will give you three answers, all of which are true and terrifying to know"
run a seer council straight into them
a bladestorm onto a doomed fex is normally fairly effective.
a falcon with a starcannon guided should make a mess of a fex as well, expecially if youre looking to replace the prisms.
banshees should dismiss genestealers out of hand unless your unlucky.
Well normally it'll depend on your list, but just remember a few basics if you see a list like this:
1) Any nidzilla list will have outflanking genestealers if they remotely know what they're doing. The outflanking is key to knocking out back squads deep in cover that would take the TMCs too long to get to. On competitive builds though, they'll be prepared for missions such as Dawn of War though (i.e. 1 HQ and 2 Troops must start on table, unless the scenario specifies otherwise). They'll satisfy this req. in their list with 2 small squads of spinegaunts. These are just for the composition, ignore these.
2) Disregard anything about Synapse that you may know, nothing that the person cares for here is going to go to instinctive behavior, ignore any gaunts until you make the push for objectives and such (as they can hold).
3) Ask the player the loadouts on each model and be sure to remember it. Tyrants alone can have wings, if they do they can't have carapace unless he upgrades with Warp Field (2+/6+). If he doesn't have Warp Field his Tyrant's got a 3+ save, this is where the Seer Council can go against it. If it has a 2+ save, the better option is to have the Council go after something else, let's face it, unless his rolls are ridiculously bad, you're going to bog down in combat for at least 3 turns. By that point, his combat fexes will be there and the Bane of councils is having to roll a lot.
3) Make sure if you have anything hanging back in the way of troops, you try to stick them to the middle of the board, this way it should take his outflanking units a turn of moving and Fleeting, than waiting until next turn before they're in range for charge. If you only have tanks hanging back, make sure to keep moving them over 6", you're not at a loss in any way if you do so, so you should be moving them either way, Tyranids or no Tyranids. Any tank moving 12" and under won't be destroyed on an Immobilised.
4) Venom Cannons and his devourers (only on the fexes) can *only glance* your tanks, unless of course he hits back armor than the dev's can pen. Don't let that str10 Venom Cannon (which is reduce to an 8 against Wave Serpents) pen. you.
5) Play cat and mouse, again I don't know what you play so I can only comment on how I deal with it. I play a mech army, basically I can just keep moving away and shooting from a distance, take advantage when he makes a mistake and singles out a unit more than 6" away from another (i.e. popping out with Fire Dragons 12" away and shooting at the lone fex, if it's far enough from another, the other fex will not be able to hit you in combat).
6) His list is most likely stronger than yours if he can get you where he wants you (which is hitting you in combat), we won't even argue against this. All CC attacks in 5th are made against the back armor, basically his fexes will auto pen you if they can hit. The *if* strives on the need for you to keep moving over 6" so he needs 6's just to hit.
I hope I didn't miss any points. I can go deeper into tactics and such if I knew your list and their lists, if you'd like.
5th E Sand(Grey) Knights: 11-3 (retired) 5th E Eldar: 37-4 (retired) 5th E Wolves 5-0
Haha, Kloma. I was going to mention the same thing with the Falcon. A guided falcon with a Starcannon would actually be a fairly good weapons platform. Theoretically, of course. There are better ways to kill one. Theoretically.
Last edited by cKerensky; August 13th, 2009 at 23:07.
5th E Sand(Grey) Knights: 11-3 (retired) 5th E Eldar: 37-4 (retired) 5th E Wolves 5-0
You're absolutely right Emp.
I will append to my post that it was a theoretical situation that would be interesting, just so nobody gets confused with having fun when playing warhammer.
Last edited by cKerensky; August 13th, 2009 at 23:48.
First on the chance I'm behind the time. They can only get up to 3 venom cannon fexes right?
I'd second the idea of seer councils being generally effective against MCs, even 2+ armored ones. The sheer volume of attacks from a full charging council should still get a couple wounds through. And more importantly a single MCs small number of attacks against your re-rolling invuls mean you aren't going to lose many of your models if you can keep swarms off of you.
And some of the other mentioned units. Still I think a fair part comes down to keeping your skimmers with cover saves and re-rolls on them. Giving you some time to whittle the enemy down before "pouncing" on them.
Also in the mess that can sometimes ensue around final contact, I've been rather pleased with shimmershield/defend dire avengers. I'm not saying their performance is great, and you'll need to bail them out. But they can gum up your opponents plans to charge serpents good stuff. Giving your better units a chance to lay into critters indavidually and repeatedly.
Last edited by sunnyside; August 14th, 2009 at 07:18.