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Lower cost of guardians
Lower cost of HWP
0-4 HWP's per squad
Increase catapults range
A combination of the above
They are fine as they are
So, almost everyone I talk to thinks that Guardians stink, with the exception of Storm Guardians being partially useful. There are a few people who field them and find them useful in some cases, but the general vibe I'm sensing is that they are not worth their points.
So I'm curious, what do you think would make them more useful? What would make you field them? If can can think of something that you would like to suggest that isn't among my options please let us know by posting here, or post anyway just to discuss the options available.
PS. This is my first attempt at a poll so don't be surprised if I botch it. DS.
A brief explanation of the options:
Choose this if you think they need more BS or a similar boost.
Choose this if you think they need a better Sv value.
-Lower cost of guardians
Choose this if you believe they should cost less than 8 pts per model.
-Lower cost of HWP
Choose this if you think that the HWP's need to be cheaper.
-0-4 HWP's per squad
Choose this if you think they should be able to have more or less than 1 HWP per squad, this includes limitations as 1 per 10 guardians in the squad or whatnot. Post in this thread if you pick this option to suggest your limitation.
-Increase catapults range
Choose this if you think the basic weapon should have a longer range, this only implies for this squad however and you should not think about the changes this would cause to other units in the Eldar army that wields shuriken catapults.
-A combination of the above
Choose this if you want more than one of the above improvements. For example if you think the points cost should be lowered and they need a better save then this is the option for you.
-They are fine as they are
Choose this option if you think Guardians are fine just as they are.
Naturally I forgot another option, oh well, it was reducing the minimum size of the squad, although I doubt it would have been a popular option.
Anyway, I'd like to be able to field 2 HWP's per squad. I'm not sure more than 2 would be reasonable though, it would just be too sweet with 4 shuricannons, kind of like those cheating Dark Eldar with their splinter cannons. >.>
I think guardians of all kinds are actually about what they should be on the table. But compared to the newer orc and IG codex they seem a bit over priced. A reduction of a point or maybe even two would make them all the nicer. Of course with kill points and troops being so valuble in objective games you might still find people will not take them because they die so quickly.
Several of the options in the poll seem to want to turn them into dire avengers. If you upgrade the stats they match DAs, if you upgrade the save they match DAs, upgrade range of gun and they would match DAs. Just let the guardians be guardians .I'm not a fan of the extra heavy weapons either, the fact that they turn it into an assault weapon is impressive having multiple heavy weapons that can shoot on the move would bit scary.
Well, in my eyes Dire Avengers are what guardians should be, but that isn't my reasoning for this. I'm just curious to see what people would change to make them a more attractive troop choice.
My reasoning for the two HWP's is that they are BS3 and because of that they will miss quite often anyway, and many people don't give them the more pricey upgrades because of this. Sure you can use Guide on them, but who would guide a Guardian squad just for the HWP when you probably have much better uses for Guide. I still doubt anyone would give them two Bright Lances or similar because of the massive point cost of doing this, but giving them 2 Shuricannons or Scatters isn't as pricey and might just be enough to motivate people to use them. I also believe that a squad with 2 expensive HWP's would become such a large threat that our opponents would actually target them and wipe out the squad long before they had a chance to get their points value back, thus mitigating any problems this could cause.
I would personally love having 2 Shuricannon HWP's in my squads, and I don't really see that as being OP considering that Dark Eldar have a better troop choice to begin with (IMO) and can upgrade to have 4 Assault 4 weapons in their squads (which is OP in my eyes, not to mention that they have BS4).
i hava unit of guardians, but thats only because i got it in the battleforce,
so i run 3 troops
10 guardians with the m launcher
5 dire avengers
10 dire avengers
the avengers are much better, for 4 points more per model, i am probably going to put another squads worth of avengers in
in answer to the question, we have a slight problem
so if we upgrade it to a dire avenger statiline
then we have to upgrade the Da statline to which would end up
with them most likely having to have a str and tgh made larger, because we cannot make a 12 point troop ws=5 and bs=5, along with a 3+ armour save, while most eldar players (including me) would love this, marine players would be angry, because they cant beat our troop most of the time, which can move further and fire more shots then them. so guardians cannot be upgraded because of this
now my question would be, if we get a 5th ed codex what will happen to guardians then, and what will hapen to the rest of the eldar
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Buffing the catapults range and ballistic skill. Perhaps an option to take plasma grenades.I'm just curious to see what people would change to make them a more attractive troop choice.
Dire Avengers should get plasma grenades as standard.
This above all; to thine own self be true.
Maybe with the heavy weapons you could do something like alot of the other codexs and split the heavy weapons into "special weapons" (maybe shuriken cannon, scatter laser, and star cannon) and "heavy weapons" (BL and EML) and have it so you can take either 2 special weapons or a special and a heavy.
Army: W/L/D -- Eldar 6/2/2; Orks 1/3/0; BA 1/1/0
The Tale of Two Gamers
The Guardians' biggest problem is that they cannot take a hit. They have a low save. This wouldn't be a problem if they had the range to compensate, but as it stands, if your Guardians can shoot the enemy, the enemy can probably assault you. In close combat, cover means nothing, and the Guardians' low save means many CC casualties.
Storm guardians are acceptable because of the +1A for the inevitability that you will be assaulted. Guardians have pretty good initiative.
Wraithguard have the same range as Guardians, but have T6 and Sv3+ to take hits.
Fire Dragons have the same range as Guardians, but they have a volley of destroy-anything-it-hits to make up for it. Their save is also acceptable.
Guardians are cheaper, yes, but they have no redeeming qualities for their low range. At that range, you are going to get shot up by bolter fire or assaulted.
Even at 6pt, I don't think Guardians would be used.
In my view:
-Make their weapons shoot at 18". 24" Rapid Fire would be fine too.
-Make their heavy weapons cost less. BS3 means only Cannons and Lasers are marginally useful. Brightlances are inferior to lascannons in every scenario except against Land Raiders.
-OR give the Heavy Weapon crew an upgrade that gives them +1BS. Those goggles on the model should be doing SOMETHING.
Giving Defenders longer range and cheaper weapons would encourage people to actually use Guardians for more offensive roles rather than sitting on objectives and praying the enemy doesn't get into firing range.
-Give them a better save
-Release a non-Direct-Order-only official model.
Giving Storms a better save makes them acceptable in close combat to stand their own.
Guardians can overall be improved by giving Warlocks better powers. Maybe a power that allows rerolls to hit? Maybe a power that gives +1S? Maybe a power that allows them to move +1d6 in the assault phase?
Last edited by Absolutionis; August 16th, 2009 at 20:26.
I say either buff the Ballistic skill, or give them the Avenger Shuriken Catapult (which would now just be the Shuriken Catapult with 18" range), this way the Dire Avengers still get their advantage of either staying out of charge range or their better BS while still retaining their superior 4+ save and better CC stats (which while they shouldn't end up using, it does happen occasionally.) On the one hand, the better BS value would improve the heavy weapons platform, while on the other hand, the better catapult would increase the usefulness of the rest of the squad. Personally I think I'd go for the higher BS, we could really do with another reliable platform for our Bright Lance that doesn't either cost a fortune(War Walkers with twin BL,) go stupid on a six without psyker support(Wraithlord,) or waste 2/3 of it's firepower when moving over 6"(Falcon.)
Scratchbuilding Fire Prism Crystals
2K Mech Eldar in 2010: 25Win/4Lose/8Draw
I use them at 8 points if they dropped down to 6 I would have enough for another Unit. ( this is at 1500 )
Perhaps we could pull out something from the craftworld codex and make them like black guardians. The defenders would get +1 bs and the storms would get +1 ws. The only problem I have with that is with enhance you could have guardians with better ws than banshies and scorpions.
The hard thing with guardians is if you change them much they start to really step on the shoes of aspect warriors. They are supposed to be our weakest unit stat wise so it is hard to make changes. I think upgrading the heavy weapon BS is a good idea to help make defenders a better option hadn't thought of something like that. Also like the idea of more warlock powers that can help them.
Grenades! offensive and defensive ones depending on what you get storm or defensive guards.
Hight elf and Craftworld Eldar army project pics heavy: linky