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So I did a little number crunching with the aid of some condex's...
First point - PLEASE check my facts. I'm working from borrowed books that might be out of date and I had very little time to go through - I may have missed the finer points of weapon selection etc.
Based on the min force org - 1x HQ and 2x Troop units, Necrons have by far the most expensive core army. In fact, only 1 other faction break the 50% mark on our costs.
1x Captain & 2x Tac Squads - 180
1x Warboss & 2x Ork Boys - 180
1x Hearld of Nurgle & 2x Daemonettes - 190
Chaos Space Marines
1x Chaos Lord & 2s CSM squads - 240
1x Inquisitor Lord & 2x Stormtroopers - 145
1x Dracon & 2x Warrior Squads - 195
1x Farseer & 2x Dire Avengers - 175
1x Command Squad & 2x Vet Squads - 190
1x Shas'el & 2x Fire Warrior Teams - 170
1x Hive Tyrant & 2x Gaunt Brood - 139
1x Palatine & 2x Storm Troopers - 135
And - finally, Necrons:
1x Lord & 2x Warriors - 460
Note - no extra war gear and the smallest unit possible have been used in all cases.
Now, this isn't about the relative strengths of the starter armies (though for balance, these should be pretty even) and 20 cron warriors is not as shabby as we all believe!
This is about the options available to us and the required costs of the base army. I expected to see that Cron's were the most expensive, but not twice as expensive! Only CSM are even half of the cost now that I have a correct entry for IG!
SM, Orks, CD, DH, Eldar, Tau, Nids and WH have starter armies that costs less than a single troop choice for crons.....
When gauss was fearsome and those 20 warriors could held some ground in CC then maybe you could argue this - but now?
[Edit] Changed CD troop choice - I'd picked up FA not troop choice! Thanks matus!
[Edit] Changed IG troop choice - 2x Vets is a _lot_ cheaper! Thanks cKerensky! Guess thats just the 1 army over half our cost then!
Last edited by Narkboy; October 29th, 2009 at 09:52.
The points might be steep, but you can't really compare to all those models. 3+ and 4+ wbb is pretty durable, usually 500 is required because no one misses the res orb! But yes, that 460 falls short now in 5th edition because of sweeping advance and such. I just take fewer troops now. Used to take 40 at 2k, now I take 30 at 2k and focus on firepower (keeping my baby warriors FAR from action often.
I'd say match price with the deamons and some plague bearers that could shoot. They're what 3+ with FNP. That might be a close comparison. We'll see how they do with out codex next.
"There is only do, or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
Thats an example of a race with only limited troop choices. That core however represents a very good core and most other races would have o spend a lot of points to get that core choice up to scratch.
In some cases these minimum examples you have given include units that while legal are too small to be of any use. Necrons may be forced to take 2 units of at least 10 MEQs for their troops, but in 5th edition its all about the troops and even if you could take smaller numbers of them you wouldn't.
p.s. daemon screamers are not a troops choice.
Necrons W0/D0/L0 Dwarfs W10/D2/L6 (8th edition)
the annoying part is IG ends up with like 4 objective grabbers and 45 models for less points cost
45 crap models or 20 tough cookies, WBB isn't even denied by AP1 or 2 (it's based off double toughness), and if a res orb is nearby, woot woot. Go ahead, try and take me down.
"There is only do, or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
Welcome to the Necron codex, where everything costs a fortune in points!
Take heart: What others have said is true. The Necrons' basic warriors do perform much, much better. Take the DH: Now, those stormtroopers are cheap for a reason. Going toe-to-toe with the Necrons, they'll go "poof" much faster than the metal men.
Now, if you're going to go with an army this small, it should be said that no DH player would be fool enough to field two minimum-sized IST squads and an inquisitor. More likely, it would be a brother-captain and two minimum-sized squads of grey knights.
Now you've got something that will perform loads better, but you're talking about 361 points, and that's with NO upgrades whatsoever. Still not as bad as Necrons, but still not cheap, and they'll have fewer bodies on the ground than you will.
Now, beef both squads up to 10 (to match the Necron army), and you're talking 611 (I think) points. Not such a bargain anymore, eh?
That's the point: Many of these armies you've posted would be ill-advised to field, at best. The Necron list here, however, will make up the core of pretty much ANY Necron army, period, full stop, unless you want to get a little crazy with Lord upgrades, or skip him entirely and use a C'Tan(an unwise choice, especially in smaller friendly games).
Aye, honestly it comes down to quality of the units being bought. Granted in close combat Necrons don't last terribly long most days, against other army's minimum basic troop choices, though, they tend to have an upper hand. Also, for base points, the Necron warriors can glance vehicles out the door, and the Necron lord gets a power weapon, along with one of the best Heavy Infantry slaying guns in the game (at short range). Combine with this that only the Hive tyrant could actually negate WBB from your Necrons. (oh right, and the Grey Knights). Necrons are the most expensive basic troop because they are the most potent. (with the possible exception of ork boyz and their ludicrous number of potential attacks in close combat.)
Mathhammered, it takes 10 ork boyz (slugga and choppa) charging and firing beforehand with pistols, to kill 2 necrons. (ignoring combat resolution) It takes 10 necrons one rapid fire to kill 7 ork boyz. Or glance a landraider twice. (this is notably something no other troops unit can do without upgrades.) the downfall, however, is that Necrons don't gain more efficiency by upgrading their squads, or expanding them, while other troops units become far more powerful with some extra bodies and their fancy special and heavy weapons.
My concern was never value for points - as most people will agree, the Necron core force is definatly one of the strongest (though I wouldn't guarantee to beat everyone on this list).
The issue I'm trying to highlight is the fact that we are forced to spend 460 points before we make a singe choice! Ever play a 500 point game as Crons? What did you spend those 40 points on? An SM player can fit in 3 Predator Destructors into his 500 point game! We can't even take a Spider!
I have no problem with the cost v strength of warriors (sweeping aside) - I think our one and only troop choice is pretty cheap for having an additional 4+ save.
As I said - this isn't about the relative strength of these armies.
My question is - why can't we take warrior squads of 5 if we wanted? That would give us a core force for 280; 30 less than IG. Why can't we make that choice?
Most of the units listed are not worth taking on their own. That's a given; but look at it this way: in a 500 point game, we take a core force and everyone else can beef up with some big choices. Why are we prevented from making a choice? Especially as - with phase out - we have a bigger risk than most to avoiding 'cheap' warriors.
Would I take less than 20 warriors in 2k games? No chance! 1.5k? Nope. 1k? Not likely - 500pt? I might.. It would be fun to try it!
Guess we cant be trusted..
Edit - let me give you an example:
For 460 points we get Lord + 20 warriors. No other choice.
Orks can, for the same price, take 60 Boyz and a Warboss and a trukk.
Or, they can take 20 boys, the boss, 10 nobs and 5 lootas.
Or, they can take 20 boys, the boss, 10 stormboyz and 4 deffkoptas.
Or, they can take 20 boys, the boss, 2 battle wagons and 10 kommandos.
Or, well - you get the point.
By the way - that last combination would give us a round to kill the wagons before the orks hit our lines and we face the gamble of CC.
Would you not rather (against that specific list) take lord, 10 warriors in 2 squads + (3 ts or 3 destroyers or 3 wraiths or even a pair of heavy destroyers)?
I'm not arguing that 460 points of Necrons is worse than 180 points of Orks - I'm arguing that 460 points of Necrons is something we get no choice over.
Last edited by Narkboy; October 26th, 2009 at 20:32.
500pt necron games are so boring
you get an orb lord and 2 warrior squads and it never changes.