Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
I mean, clearly my question seems like it would be self explanitary, but mine never seem to do anything
its 120 points that can't kill anything
don't get me wrong, I love the way my finders look, and painting them was alot of fun, but in the two games I've used them in... I've been rather underwhelmed.
maybe its because I'm used to useing my DAs or my GUs, and throwing ALOT of dice at people. Eldar are fun for making people double take when I grab about 2 cubes worth of dice... then proceed to reroll all my misses and/or fail to wounds haha. =D
ANYWAY, back on point,
for 120 points, my Pathfinders get 5 attack dice per turn, of those about 4 hit, and 1.333 (on average) are AP1. Of those 4 hits only 2 will cause a wound due to snipers ALWAYS wounding on 4+ irregardless. Thus even if I got an AP1 hit, there is only a 50% chance of causeing a kill or a wound on a monsterous creature and if a non AP1 shot hits, they save as normal ONTOP of my mere 50% chance to wound.
In any event, as these numbers should have lead me to believe, I was doing next to no damage to either MEQ or TMC. At first I thought to myself maybe if I had a full squad of 10, or 2 squads of 5 I'd have enough dice to do something noticeable, but then I realized that that would be NO MORE COST EFFECTIVE AT ALL, in terms of points per damage
while I am fully aware that rangers/pathfinders are widely considered better than Guardians or on par with Dire Avengers, I need somebody show me why, possibly with numbers, etc. Because I have been kinda let down with my sniper support =(
While it is true that putting them on an objective, with thier 2+ cover save can give your opponent a headache, they tend to be no worse off completely ignoring the snipers, or sending a cheap squad to stomp them in melee or roast them with fire, and the Rangers on thier own really can't stop anything from advancing due being capable of causing VERY few wounds even against thier perfered targets.
so I return to you forum, how do I use my very cool, sniper units and avoid facepalming when my 120 point unit kills 1 or 2 enemies in an entire game?
Ok friend Im not a mathammer kinda guy so i cant throw any numbers at you. Game is ment to be fun tactics not a algebra quiz . But what I can tell you is that I have alot of experience playing eldar and I cant think of a battle ive gone into without a unit of 6 of these guys.
Put them in cover far away from enemies and aim at termies, HQ's, or MC's and watch the mayhem. Its works for me everytime. Either they make there points back in kills or my opponent will dedicate valuable CC unit to kill them because with a 2+ cover save there is no way he is wiping out the unit with range fire.
They are toast if you see CC coming thier way thou. Good way to counter this is with another good CC unit that can afford to hang back like a waithlord or something similar.
Another idea im toying with is putting them in cover next to an objective (given their resilience) and Wave Sepenting a good CC bog to support them effectively locking down that objective for a long time(DA with shimmer and defend or scorpions would be great at this).
Just some tried and true advice and theoretical tactics...
Last edited by Laughing God; November 7th, 2009 at 03:47.
2500pts Emperors Children
1000pts Dark Eldar Cabal of Agony Eternal
Pretty much already summed up.
They're really good at taking out MCs and HQs because they wound on a fixed rumber rather than against the strength of the target. Also they have a chance for the shot to be AP1 which means it's possible to ignore even really tough armor.
Might want to rename this Pathfinder Mathhammer or something along those lines.
Pathfinders jsut camp an objective with a great cover save and maybe Pin or wound some units/MCs. Just a cheap hold back unit every list should try and have.
Check my Blog for Battle Reports, useless ranting and more! Comments appreciated.
Like to talk Warhammer or want some advice on Armies or Tactics? Drop me a PM!
I think the mathhammer included in my post is misleading people.
if you notice the other parts of my post, they refer exclusively to my personal experience with the unit, I was merely providing math hammer, which I did in retrospect and completely explained my personal expirience with my Pathfinders.
everyone says that pathfinders are "good at taking out MCs, because they ignore toughness"
my point, I had my pathfinders shooting at a Carnifex for about 4 turns, and caused 2 wounds. The mathhammer which I provided done in retrospect showed me that I should be, even with doom, be expecting on average less than a wound a turn from a squad of 5.
This mathhammer once again was merely done to see if it was an anomoly that my pathfinders, which are supposed to be "good at taking out MCs" were failing to do anything substantial to a simple, common, and cheap TMC.
further, while a 2+ save is indeed great, due to thier low numbers they aren't significantly more durable than a squad of 10 guardians going to ground on the same objective, and from what I can tell, they do about as much damage.
unless I am seriously mistaken in reading "good at taking out MCs" as implying the ablility to kill one... like Yriel on the charge for instance, my pathfinders in expirience and actual tabletop gameplay did not do any substantial damage to any MCs that I have shot at.
Don't take this the wrong way but I'm glad someone else has problems making pathfinders work. I end up with exactly the same problem, they don't actually do that much damage and once anyone gets near them they tend to die. I have found that a guardian squad with a EML or scatterlaser ( for roughly the same points ) works almost as well and when something gets close they can atleast step forward and throw a bunch of dice at the enemy. This is not to say that either unit is that great, you just need to look at the very long thread we have about guardians to understand they have problems but they have numbers, can hurt a tank with the heavy weapon and can move and shoot. Perhaps I need more practice in infiltrating pathfinders into good positions but anything forward at all just means they get killed faster.
My table top experiance with pathfinders varies. for me it depends on my day. I usualy have bad luck with dice, execpt when it comes to the pathfinders. For me, running a squad of 5, i hit 4 times, 2 of which are ap 1. then i wound all 4 times. so for me, they are a godsend.
Some highlights for me include taking out abbadon in 1 turn with 2 squads of 5 becuase he was by himself, and a squad of 10 agianst a nidzilla list taking out 1 mc a turn.
Like everything else Eldar these guys seem very contextual - i.e. used in the right way at the right time they are good - but used in the wrong place and time, they are rubbish (but that could be argued about most other armies as well I supose).
I don't use them often because there always seems to be something more useful to use for the points - however I do like to mix my lists up a lot as I enjoy using the different models I have. One game where I did use them I managed to foce a draw when I really should have lost, thanks to the Pathfinders. They sat up on the 3rd level of a building right above an objective. They took loads of shooting (no idea why as they weren't very threatening) but survived easily enough - On my last turn I dropped them to the ground level thanks to their "ignore difficult terrain" and contested the objective.
I somehow feel that giving a unit "ignore difficult terrain" and then giving them heavy weapons so they can't shoot and move a little wasteful - even though it did work for me this once. Frankly 5th Ed nerfed the sniper rifle a bit as well as they used to hit on a 2+.
Check out my Blog for my Biel-Tan Apocalypse progress
Pathfinders are durable in terrain but thats about it. The reason they're good against large creatures isn't just because they have snipers but because of their limited number of shots and to actually cause wounds targeting such targets is one of the better ways for them to make their points back.
Personally I think you're expecting too much out of the pathfinders. They're a support squad essentially and won't fare too well if you expect them to be able to handle tasks on their own.
- I use my Pathfinders as a forward squad. Scouting and ignoring terrain means there's a decent chance of them sitting on an objective early game, this means your opponent will have to find a way to get rid of them as you're already at an advantage and gives you some possible insight in what s/he may try and do. You're not loosing much if they happen to die either.
- Scouting again, you could leave you pathfinders on the side lines for the first part of the game, but you can use the as late game objective grabbers, seeing as they ignor terrain and may fleet and gives you another option if you know your snipers have no viable role (killl wise).
- Support your Pathfinders with some other units, Stiking Scorpions, Warp Spiders and Jetbikes work well because they're able to get to them relatively quickly. Support weapon Platforms offer a cheap long range area of caution which the Pathfinders can sit in, needless to say some choices don't require LoS so you can catch jump infantry.
- Target weaker/ed units or support another squad with additional firepower. A small heavy weapons team would suffer alot from any casulties for example. Firing a small volley of sniper shots before any other form of shooting is also advisable, if that pinning takes effect thats one squad you don't have to worry about next turn and may open up fresh choices for the rest fo your army. Firing last means you could deliever the killing blow where its needed.
- Although the same can be done to you, you could deny your opponents infiltrators deployment zones. Down to luck really that one.
- Lastly your Pathfinders do not have to shoot every turn. They could spend a turn getting away from danger, getting closer to objectives or just to a better shooting spot. They may not kill much but they're a threat regardless. Your opponent probably won't take a liking to a long ranged unit peppering his more valuable units with sniper fire (or dealing that wraithlord the final blow) and may try to do something about it (less attention to your aspects or more valuable squads). If he doesn't then you may score some kills next turn.
Anyways I hoped that helped, or opened up some fresh ideas.
In regard to the video, careful when choosing to dedicate a Farseer to a unit of Pathfinders. While very viable thats time he doesn't spend with more juicy squads, not to mention spend a lot of points on a firebase that doesn't produce that much fire. Also note that your opponent will have the heads up on these Fortune powers and may very well direct his firepower elsewhere.
Keep in mind that when in a maximum sized squad they will die together and flee together. But they do survive together with Farseer support (double edged sword would be the term I think). If you do happen to want to have that many Pathfinders/Rangers also consider splitting them up into two squads. This would mean your opponent can only target them one at a time. You will also loose less if they happen to pin or flee and if your first volley of shots pin a squad you have the choice to have the second lot go try their luck elsewhere. Lastly, it gives you more angles to work with, if you want to deploy them in one large lump you still can but if you want to split there's the option to (Gain more objectives or whatnot).
He does have valid pointers but this is what I'd watch out for with his advice.