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So there is a very vague rumour that Eldar are getting a codex update in the near future. Naturally I'm very skeptical of this happening since many other codices are in more need of an update. But it did get me thinking about what I'd like to see changed. So what would you like to see in the next edition of the Eldar? I'm just talking about rules this time around, and not models (although a lot of those really are in need of an update).
For one I'd like to see the rules streamlined somewhat, right now almost all of the Heavy weapons Eldar can field could just as well be Assault weapons, since they are only mounted on tanks, MC's or H.W.P.'s. And this is also in line of what my vision of the Eldar is, a fast mobile hit and run type of army. So I'd like to have the static units changed to something more mobile, the only really static units we have now are Dark Reapers and Support Weapon Batteries. I'm not sure how exactly this could be done without making them overpowered or obsolete, but I'd like to see it done nonetheless.
The second large thing I'd like to see changed are the underused units, like Swooping Hawks, Vypers, Support Weapons, Falcons, Dark Reapers, Guardian Defenders, Shining Spears, Harlequins, Wraithguard and The Phoenix Lords. These units are very rarely used, I'm not sure what to do with them to make them more effective, but something needs to be done. Eldar in general are poorly suited at handling horde type armies, maybe some of these units can be changed to better handle hordes. A general problem here is that there are not enough roles for the amount of units available, so they tend to impose on eachother and there is always one choice better than the other. So maybe some more specialization for these units could do them well.
I have a few ideas for improving the underused units, but not many. I think Harlequins should have a dedicated transport, maybe even bring back the Venom for this purpose. I think Eldar vehicles (all Eldar to be honest) should have a base WS/BS of 4, and that Vypers should be positioned between the War Walkers and full fledged tanks like the Falcon giving us a intermediate type vehicle to the two extremes we have today. The points cost would need to be adjusted to compensate for this naturally
One concrete change I'd like to see is the Scorpions Claw weapon that Striking Scorpion Exarches can take. To me a cumbersome weapon like a Power Fist is not very Eldar in style, so my idea is changing this weapon to add +1 S (like the Scorpion Chainsword) and making it a Power Weapon, which means lower strength than today, but no Initiative loss. The points cost could be discussed, but it would be more Eldar in style in my opinion.
Another concrete change I'd like to see the the rules is regarding the Warp Jump Generator used by Warp Spiders. It doesn't make any sense to me that a dying race would risk a 1/6 chance of dying just for some extra speed when they already have Eldar Guardian Jetbikes with a similar ability and cost. So I propose changing the rules for this equipment somewhat. Keep the second jump, but if a double is rolled they don't move at all (but no one dies). I think this is in actuality a big nerf to this unit, since it makes it a higher risk to rely on that second jump to keep them out of danger. It would however be more fluffy with this set of rules, and with a somewhat similar principle (risk/reward). I think the cost of each Warp Spider would have to be reduced somewhat though, but not by much, and the Warp Jump Generator for the Autarch could possible become more expensive since you no longer risk losing him directly (although indirectly he's still at risk).
The last thing is perhaps one of the more flimsy ones. But I think Eldar Psykers have become a lot less threatening for opponents. There are so many mean psychic inhibitors that other races can use now that really hurts the Eldar psykers. What happened to them being the master psykers of the galaxy? I'm not sure what to do here though, they do have very nice and useful abilities and are quite competitive, but they just don't feel right to me. To me other people should be afraid of our psykers, fearing that we might bring them, not counting on it and getting used to always having a unit doomed or that one opposing unit can't get killed for a turn. Again, I'm not complaining about their effectiveness here, but rather their feel.
Anyway, these are my thoughts right now, I'm sure I had more ideas that I've forgotten about before I got around to writing them down. What is your future vision for the Eldar? Do you have any concrete improvements to make? Any features that can be streamlined? Do you have a general direction you wish them to move towards?
I'd like to see a couple of things, and I agree with most of your posts.
I'll start off with what I DON'T want changed: Pathfinders. Their rules put them in a position to be the best standard sniper in the game. They do that job just fine, and fill that niche. They shouldn't be toned down to be equal to other snipers.
Guardians: Either allow them to take another weapons platform, or if they're paired up with a warlock, make their weapons platform twin linked. I don't think they should be BS 4 (they're still civilians who can shoot as well as trained soldiers). A Twin Linked weapons platform would be deadly. In an ideal world, I'd even be for increasing their catapult range to 18 inches.
Falcons...Falcons falcons. Either bring back their Jump-shoot-jump ability, increase their BS to 4, or increase their front/side armour to 13 (or all the above). I shouldn't have to nickname my falcon the "failcon" with its mighty "fail-laser."
Wraith guard: This is a tough one. Since they're already bound to wraithbone, maybe allow them to deep strike? They need a change to make them more usable in every battle (they SHOULD be our version of a Terminator). As it is, Fire dragons can pretty much do what they can, for less, AND can fit in a Failcon (making the Failcon somewhat useful as a Dragon Wagon.). Maybe two wounds, or a 5+ invul? At the very least, remove their size constraint so we can fit a full troop choice into a wave serpent.
Dark Reapers. Another tough one. Nobody takes them because of their heavy weaponry which doesn't really fit into an Eldar army, but, the weapons can't be just convert to assault, so, I propose they get what Psycannons have: Heavy 2,48, and Assault 1 24. Two firing modes.
Prism tanks are fine. They're our main tank destroyer, and thats where they should be.
Waveserpent: I'd like to allow Eldar players to take a Serpent WITHOUT the shields, at an appropriate point reduction. If in doubt, don't touch. Best APC in the game right now.
Vypers: Increase front armour to 11, and BS to 4. Problem solved.
Avatar of Kaine: He's a daemon, right? sort of? Let him deep strike.
Autrach: Is there any reason why a race of master technological advancements can't fit their warrior generals with 2+ armour?
Really? And please, give us the option to upgrade his toughness to 4 without the need of a bike.
Farseers: Allow them to counter a psycic counter ability, naturally, on a 4+. They can craft tech to block daemons from the warp itself, but apparently not other stuff designed to do the same. Hummmm.....
Harliquins: Give them AP4 pistols, problems solved.
Swooping Hawks: Tough one. Allow them to assault after deep striking, and give them furious charge. Or, give that ability to Warp Spiders......
Warp Spiders: Modify Surprise Assault to allow them to assault after deep striking, and give their spinneret rifles AP6, at the very least.
Storm Guardians: Release a plastic kit. Really. So more people can realize just HOW AWESOME they are. Really. Go release one.
Wraithlords: Eternal Warrior, or the option to increase their armour save at a 2+. With that in mind, allow us to run a Wraithlord as an HQ choice, AND, if done so, remove the requirement for wraithsight on all wraithsight units.
Things I'd like to see added:
Artillary. We have none. We need some. The Spinneret Falcon up on forgeworld works. Use that one.
Now, I'm not saying that all them should be implemented, but one or two, and I'd be happy. (Notably: Running Wraithlords as an HQ unit. So Iyanden players can properly run an all undead army.)
Last edited by cKerensky; December 6th, 2009 at 06:49.
I don't see Eldar as needing an update, they do so well even with a slightly old Codex, but not nearly as old as some.
I think it'd be nice for Wraithguard to not be one of the worst units in the game. Cheapen them up, bump the T back down and let them be Troops in smaller squads.
Make Spears, Spiders and Reapers a little more desirable.
Fix Support Batteries so they aren't awful in comparison to the other Heavies.
Somehow make Prisms more able to fire but lower their power a bit.
Add at least 3 more special characters, 2 is pathetic.
Make Eldar the BEST psychic army. Chaos and SWs are leagues better and that's stupid.
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Aside from some responses to other, new codices (it would be nice to be able to fight back against Psychic Hoods/Runic Weapons, but we've been saying that for 3 editions now) There are just a few units I think need some attention.
Swooping Hawks: Give them the ability to move when they deep strike in. It might raise their cost, but I'd at least like to see them be a solid choice. These are one of my favourite units, it's sad that I never take them.
Farseers do need some attention, Fortune, Doom and Guide are great powers. Mind War and Eldritch Storm need some work. A few more powers (either support or offensive) would not go amiss either. Eldrad's divination power should be an option too, or something like it.
Shining Spears need work. I don't personally play Jetbikes so I'm not sure where to go with them. Spyders and Reapers could use some attention too, but I don't know exactly what.
Bringing Falcons in line with Prisms would be nice. Leave Serpents alone though, they're my favourite transport and any change would be a bad one.
Eldar have 8 or so special characters, they just need to make the phoenix lords a bit more desirable. Either giving them an inv save, say a 5+ or cutting the points down some would help alot. I wouldn't mind if they brought in the solitare for the HQ slot. Let it play with the FoC so a more or less pure harlie army can be made again. The Autarch could use some love. Perhaps improving the master strategist rule somehow, maybe helping with deciding who goes first or helping with deepstrike outflank roles. Farseers are great but with all the ways other psykers are improving I would love to see them pushed back to the top. Last give the Avatar eternal warrior, like every other demon in the game gets.
Move some of the heavy support out of that FoC. Move dark reapers to elites, warwalkers to fast attack. Perhaps an HQ to let wraithlords be taken in elite and heavy support like marines with dreads (if I recall correctly there was a named spiritseer perhaps bring her back for this? ). Give the falcon BS 4, if the prism gets it so should the falcon. support weapon batteries are a tough one. You can't make them much cheaper and the price isn't the biggest problem they just die to quickly and are to vulnerable to deepstrike, outflank, fast units.
Make our current fast attack units a better choice. Giving the spiders an AP would help as they could be much more effective at killing AV again. reducing the cost a small amount would help also. Hawks could use a point reduction and the option for something like the vanguards heroic intervention perhaps only against vehicles? Shining spears could use another attack per model or a larger squad size. Vypers could use a better BS, uping the AV or loosing the open topped any of these would help them greatly.
Wraithguard could really use an inv save or two wounds or something as is they are fun but just to expensive to be a competitive choice. Give guardian jetbikes the option to take more than just the shuriken cannon for the weapon upgrade. Storm guardians are fine maybe bring the points down to keep them in line with the IG and ork basic troops. Defenders need some help the twin linked hwp is a good idea. Rangers have never been my cup of tea so don't have much to say on them.
Our Elites are in very good shape barring the wraithguard. The harlies could use a few changes to make them a bit more competitive. Maybe 4+ save in combat would work.
Overall the codex still works, just a few tweaks and balancing the points to compare to the newer codexes would help alot.
Okay first off I'd like to see that I fully disagree with this thread (in a non-rude way).
The main reason I play Eldar is because I feel that out of all the armies we are THE ONLY ONES who never seem to talk about how crap our army book is or how badly we need an update (although in fairness some armies need it badly). No matter what the edition, the eldar army book is one to be rightly feared on every occasion. We are the best players of the game (no disrespsect intended) because it takes so much practice to get an eldar army to work and when it does it's a deadly prospect that is unmatched by others.
But to be fair I will admit there are certain elements that are going out of date and in another year or two I can really see this effecting the army as a whole.
HQ: We have the BEST psyker in the game, fact. I love my farseer and quite frankly there isn't a single eldar player who doesn't. Some say that our psychic defence isn't good enough. I think that Runes of Warding are absolutely fantastic. The average roll of three dice is 10/11. Anything higher is a perils. Although all psykers have LD 10 these days that is very very good. 5th ed is rapidly becoming a battle of mental ability between the HQs whilst the troops scrum over objectives and farseers are better prepared than most for this.
Autarchs are a great idea that isn't quite finished. I love my bike-tarch but he's the only loadout that works I find. Does anybody use Phoenix lords?? I have honestly never seen one used. They are definitely too expensive but a nice idea too.
ELITES: Wraithguard are very very slow. if you walk the they don't do very much, if yu transport them they get charged and prevented from shooting. Although it is hard to beat them in combat, they sure as hell won't be winning either.
Banshees are pretty fine even though I don't use them.
Fire Dragons are the best aspect of fifth ed.
Harlies still work fine, bit expensive but very scary. Kiss needs to be cheaper with the change in rending.
Scorps need an option for a power weapon at strength 4. Otherwise they are perfect.
TROOPS: Dire Avengers are.....fantastic. they really are.
Guardians are often overlooked. This is because Avengers do what guardians do better and BS 3 with one heavy weapon ain't cutting it.
Guardian Jetbikes are fine. Maybe the cannon could be cheaper but it wouldn't be the end of the world if it stayed the same.
Rangers aren't that good but Pathfinders are just excellent the way they are. I'd be delighted but surprised if they stayed troops.
FAST: Swooping Hawks. I love them fluffwise but they can't kill anything. They need stormbolters and they need a re-roll scatter for DS and grenade. maybe better tankbusting grenades to go with intercept??
Shining Spears I have played a lot and they just aren't up to it. They are short either a pistol, and attack upgrade or else a serious points reduction, about 7 pts.
Vypers are open topped. WHY?? They would be absolutely fine if the top gets closed. Maybe front 11, but I like them cheap and expendable.
Warp Spyders. I have never played them, I don't rate them but a lot of people like them a lot. AP 6 or 5 would make them near perfect and that warp jump generator should never kill them. Ever. A 6 inch assault move that can go through terrain would be really nice but perhaps too good?
HEAVY: Support weapons. Our artillery is awful. There is no other way of putting it. The D-Cannon is manageable but the vibro cannon and shadow weaver are very very bad. Complete overhaul needed.
Wraithlords need 2+ save 5+ invul. They can increase the cost or whatever but quite frankly they are getting spanked by lascannons and snipers ever since area terrain went away. Maybe an option not to have to stick a gun would be nice? A lot of people like them sprinting and they have to take a heavy weapon anyway. That's mean.
Falcons are far too expensive to make them durable. Good Falcons are up around 160 or more points. And they are BS 3. This has boggled me since I opened the book and it still does. A simple BS upgrade gets them back in action.
Fire Prisms are near ridiculous. They need no changing. I love how great they are in pairs.
EXTRAS: Wave Serpents are great. Stick star engines on and you are getting whatever's inside all the way across the battlefield whether your opponent likes it or not.
Starcannons are the biggest disappointment of the book. They lost one shot and were made more expensive and thus our primary Marine killing ability was lost. Why they were so badly nerfed I don't know but they need to get that shot back or go way way down in cost.
Fortes Fortuna Adiuvat
Anyway, nice input people, I'm glad it's staying mature and to the point. All ideas and input are welcome, even if they are based on fluff.
One thing that I had forgotten to add that I'd like to see is having the Bright Lance become AP1, in my eyes this is really needed to make it a more appealing compared to the E.M.L. that is almost always taken instead of the Bright Lance due to it being cheaper, just about as effective and also decent at killing clusters of infantry and pinning them.
I don't know why people are so opposed to having the base Eldar WS/BS increased to 4 though, I think this fits in nicely with the fluff, and wouldn't ruin anything in particular although it would warrant some cost adjustment, but how often don't changes warrant that anyway.
My reason for this thinking is that in my eyes even the clumsiest most inept Eldar could still dance circles around even the most augmented human like for example the imperial assassins. That being said assassins also need to be nerfed, but that's another topic of discussion. Secondly I'd imagine the Eldar to have tracking capabilities built into their weapons and/or armour like a 41st millennium aimbot.
I know what you are thinking "But then Aspect Warriors will need to be WS/BS 5!", when in actuality they don't. The difference would be that Aspect Warriors would be trained in using their specialized weapons/gear instead of the standard spray and pray shuriken weaponry, but still be equally skilled to Guardians. Because most Guardians will have already served their "tour" if you will, as Aspect Warriors and then gone back to other occupations. But it's not like they forget about being faster and more agile than any human could ever be just because they take up cooking after having been elite warriors for half a century. I don't want to go in to this more in this thread though, it's a discussion for another time and place.
Definately some interesting ideas-
Some I feel are related/similar that would be good:
Swooping Hawks - much cheaper or better weaponry.
Dark Reapers - Cheaper, different FoC slot.
Wraithguard - A mobility choice for the troop selection. Probably cheaper too.
Some new syngergistic psychic powers, rather than the flat out OP stuff thats being released recently.
Guardians - need a major overhaul.
Warp Spiders - Good, but need to be cheaper, also AP6 as people said so they are useful tank hunters.
Shining Spears - Either a points decrease or a noticeable buff to their hitting power, either would be equally good. Just not enough attacks.
The Wraithlord HQ idea is fantastic, particularly removing the wraithsight rule.
Would also like to see alot of the special rules rolled into the Exarch cost, but much cheaper than now, many are considered mandatory anyway.
Also seeing the extra WS/BS on Guardians isn't a big issue despite peoples concern. Scorps still have extra str, Harlies a plethora of cool stuff, Banshees their power swords, etc etc, its not impeding on the aspect territory, particularly when most guardians would be ex-aspect warriors. Just like Inian said, and I've said before. Would just need to make the WS not stack with warlock enhance.
Because Marine fanbois would cry? I agree though, I think that would be one way to make Guardians worth 8pts a model. And honestly, overall I would prefer Eldar to get a power-boost as opposed to a points drop. They're supposed to an elite fighting force with advanced technology, and I wish that were reflected more in the rules.I don't know why people are so opposed to having the base Eldar WS/BS increased to 4 though, I think this fits in nicely with the fluff, and wouldn't ruin anything in particular although it would warrant some cost adjustment, but how often don't changes warrant that anyway.I agree Aspects wouldn't need to be bumped up, but on a fluff point I have to disagree about Guardians. It is possible that some guardians were previously aspects, but the fluff describes them at length as specifically a civilian fighting force. Not all Eldar walk every path, and given the extent to which guardians are described as being civilians and from non-warrior paths, it's fair to assume most guardians have not been Aspect Warriors. That said, I agree that it'd be nice to see Eldar represented as the lightning quick race with keen reflexes they're described as in the fluff.I know what you are thinking "But then Aspect Warriors will need to be WS/BS 5!", when in actuality they don't. The difference would be that Aspect Warriors would be trained in using their specialized weapons/gear instead of the standard spray and pray shuriken weaponry, but still be equally skilled to Guardians. Because most Guardians will have already served their "tour" if you will, as Aspect Warriors and then gone back to other occupations. But it's not like they forget about being faster and more agile than any human could ever be just because they take up cooking after having been elite warriors for half a century.
I think all the phoenix lords need to be competitive is an ability which lets them take their aspect as troops. A lot of other commanders already utilize similar abilities in other codex, and it would allow for things like Karandras commanding an army consisting of mostly striking scorpions. Not only would it be fluffy, it would definitely make paying some of the lords viable for certain builds, (Maugan Ra with Reapers as troops would make for a scary gunline)