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Hello Ork Brothers!
I've been on a bit of a hiatus from 40k for the past few months. But the bug is back and my friends and I are likely to start playing again. Wondering if there is anything exciting I've missed from GW? I've heard of a new Nid Dex coming out in January, anything else exciting going on with new releases?
Last I played the IG Dex/Models was the newest release.
EDIT: To much LotRO, there is no 'C' in 'Ork' in the future
Last edited by Monkeyclops; December 14th, 2009 at 18:57.
Space wolves got re-released, Orks just keep looking worse with every new book.
Last edited by ==Me==; December 15th, 2009 at 15:49.
I don't know if they got worse off SW's, I think they got worse off IG. SW's are a pretty favorable matchup for Orks if they're a horde. I never really speak on mech Orks as I consider that a bad build.
Depending on how 'Nids go, Orks may become a second rate army. That would be very unfortunate.
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Allow me to rephrase ==Me=='s statement slightly:
With each new codex release, HORDE Ork armies look worse and worse.
With the new Imperial Guard codex, it's once again possible for IG to simply 'shoot' everything to death long before their opponent reaches them on foot. In competitive settings, it's pretty much speed freaks (backed up by lootas) or nothing.
Now that I think of it, that pretty much goes for every army. If you don't have either transports, outflanking, or deep striking, you can't really win in competitive settings.
I don't think Orks are going to become a 'second rate' army any time soon, not when 2 of the top 5 finalists at the Ard Boyz finals were Ork players (two Imperial Guard and one Eldar were the others). However, as with many armies, there may eventually be only one or two Ork army builds that the neck beards consider to be 'competitive'.
Last edited by mynameisgrax; December 14th, 2009 at 21:14.
Horde Orks stopped being good when 5th ed came out, I'm talking about the salvageable stuff like Mech Orks and Bikerz
SW do horrible things to Orks. Living Lightning and massed missiles are tailor made to smash up our armor, while everybody getting counter attack and ultragrit helps them nail the lightly armored boyz, Jaws makes Nobs a joke, and the prevalence of their mech leaves Orks almost unable to cope. And we won't even get into Thunderwolves
Did you see those Ork armies at 'Ard Boyz? Jeez, they were terrible. Horde and Trukkspam, facepalm to the max. But I suppose if people keep running poor armies Orks will continue to noobslay like always
I heard the Ork armies that made it to the final 5 of Ard Boyz were mainly Nob lists, and that was from one of the other finalists (the Eldar one).
Jaws doesn't make nobz a joke, although they are a serious problem for nob bikers, but if you put all your faith in a single unit, you're going to have trouble in any case. Personally, I prefer meganobz, so it isn't as much of a problem.
5th edition was the death knell for competitive tankbustas and burnas, but I think horde Orks didn't start their decline until the new Space Marine codex came out, and the new Imperial Guard finished them off.
Still, I think Orks are still more than competitive enough to hold their own, with or without Space Wolves. The armies that truly got taken down several pegs by the new codexes were Tau and Necron (by the new super shooty Imperial Guard), and all the close combat focused Marine chapters, like Blood Angels and Black Templar (by the incredibly vicious Space Wolves).
The Orks are still the most cost effective army in the game. Of course, with the new Tyranid codex, that might change...
It's not just Space Wolves that hurt Orks, 5th edition and the new style of books gave Orks all sorts of problems, but them and IG do an excellent job making the problems Orks have that much more obvious.
The Ork armies Darkwynn (the overall winner) reported were Trukkspam (5 Nob units in Trukk, Ghazzy, Boyz in Trukks) and your generic horde. Both terrible armies, which appear to be a staple for 'Ard Boyz. Massed open-topped AV10, KFF or no, is not lasting at 2500 points, nor will 12 boyz.
Jaws is indicative of the overall increase in utility psychic powers have underwent, and Orks are stuck with no defense against it (other than the business end of a choppa) and our own psyker is, while amusing and fun, inconsistent at best. It's another nail in the coffin of "all your eggs in one basket" type armies, which Orks are infamous for.
The Ork Codex was the death knell of Tankbustas and Burnas, 5th edition just made it worse If Burnaz could get a bosspole, dedicated transport, and +2D6 against vehicles you'd see them a lot more often. Tankbustas need Tank Hunters, a dedicated transport, and something for Glory Hogs (I propose a Ld test to encourage big units, big expensive BS2 single-shot units).
Orks hover in the same limbo that CSM do, they excel at destroying suboptimal, 4th editioney, crappy armies that noobs or people who don't feel like updating run, but when a solid 5th edition (mech typically, but there are alternatives) show up, they have a much tougher road. Orks really suffer against armor, and since it got more prevalent life got harder. For being lauded as a CC army, Boyz get slapped around regularly by stuff like Kroot, Grey Hunters, Assault Squads, Hormagaunts (especially the new ones, 3 attacks w/ re-rolls and 4+ poison is brutal) and suffer more from No Retreat! Nobs are cool, but powerfists see them drop like flies. Orks really lack a proper anvil unit like TH/SS Termies, all they have are hammers and units that specialize in killing basic infantry, but not heavier stuff or tanks.
Necrons got it bad, but Tau are extremely potent when done right. Unfortunately, since their book is so old they have like 1 or 2 builds to use, everything else pretty much sucks.
Cost effective in terms of points or money? Marines have the latter on lock, probably the former too. IG are great as well.
Orks are ==My== favorite army, I love them to death, but it's frustrating to be saddled with a book that was basically outdated before the ink was dry. The worst part is that nobody sees it. Since tournies today are so comp-heavy, all you see are crappy armies and when it comes to poor lists, Orks dominate against them. It's gonna suck for people when the rug gets pulled out from under them, Tyranids may be the ones to do it too
You can make Orks work, just like any other army, but they are really limited. Still a ton of fun to play, though.
Space Marines are cost effective? Perhaps an all scout/land speeder/vindicator army, but they'd have the same problems that IG have, falling apart the second the Orks got within klaw range.
I still think you're oversimplifying, ==Me== and making extreme statements based on personal opinion, rather than actual fact or events.
Now, when the new Ork codex came out, they were considered to be the most broken and powerful army out there, and the 180 boy list was considered all but invincible. Of course 5th edition and the new codexes changed that, but they still regularly place in the top 3 of most of the tournaments I go to, with Space Marines and Imperial Guard being their main competition.
You keep calling the Ork armies that placed in the top 5 of Ard Boyz 'terrible', but you're ignoring the fact that they both PLACED IN THE TOP 5 OF ARD BOYZ. Did any Space Marines or Chaos Marines place in the top 5 of Ard boyz? ^_^
They're obviously very good armies played by very good players. The only people who have the right to say they're 'terrible' are the other 3 people who placed in the top 5, and we're not one of them.
I know several people who went to the finals of Ard Boyz, and they're the best players I know, virtually untouchable by myself or any other players they go against. One of them got 6/6 wins and close to a perfect score in the first two rounds of Ard Boyz. None of them made it anywhere near the top 5 of the finals (although in past years one or two of them took 3rd and 4th place), so the people who placed in the top must have both very good lists and very good players if they can outperform the best players I've ever known, and I play in a very competitive area.
Now, one thing I'll definitely agree with is that Orks have a little trouble at the 2500 point level, especially if they don't concentrate on nobz and Ghazghkull. The sweet spot seems to be between 1500-1850 points. It's enough that they can load a list with cost effective transports and troops without facing too much armor on the other side of the field. Still, several Ork lists obviously made it, so they definitely can work.
Another good point you have is that the Imperial Guard are VERY cost effective. However, they still fold up in close combat relatively easily. Orks are sort of the 'flipside' of the Imperial Guard. They're just as cost effective, but instead of focusing on armor and guns, the Orks focus on assault and speed.
Marines are extremely points efficient: cheap flexible Troops (Tacs in Rhinos), plenty of nasty and cheap firepower (dakka Preds and Dreads), Land Raiders, TH/SS Termies, Sternguard, and a wide variety of viable and unique builds. With the right set up, they can pretty much do anything and do it quite well.
Everything I say is personal opinion, otherwise I wouldn't be saying it
Orks came out in 4th, and turned the game on its head. Why? Well, vehicles were rarely used outside of Mechdar and MechTau since they were overall so fragile, transports sucked, and everybody ran low RoF, low AP weapons to kill marines. 5th showed up and took all that away, turning Orks from hunter to hunted. Light AV, open-topped vehicles, large footslogging assault units, no real way of dealing with AV14, reliance on combat and deathstar units to get the job done, and No Retreat! hurt Orks severely now.
Anybody can criticize a painting, just like anybody can criticize a list. Taking 9 Trukks and hoping 2500 points of anything isn't going to table you is stupid. I didn't go to 'Ard Boyz, I was in Europe at the time, and I'm sure there are plenty of good players who didn't go for whatever reason (nothing going on nearby, travel costs, not enjoying the goofy scenarios and shenanigan-friendly organization). Hell, even the winner himself lucked out by getting 1st turn every game with his alpha strike from hell army and going up against garbage like horde Orks and Trukkspam.
IG do not fear Orks, or at least they shouldn't, since Orks have a hell of time cracking all that AV12 (must pop the transport then squish the guys inside, leaving you in the open to get BBQ'd/Pie'd) and IG have plethoras of flamers/pies, autocannons and meltas (tailor made weapons to destroy hordes, Trukks and Battlewagons/Nobs), and a big stubborn platoon can stop a charging mob in its tracks for a couple turns.