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I was reading the Ork vehicle upgrade section today and the rules for the reinforced ram seemed to imply something interesting. They allow you to tank shock, re-roll dangerous terrain etc. but also allow you to treat your front armour as 2 higher than it is for the purposes of Death or Glory. Now, I was playing a friend while reading the upgrade section (I was looking up a different rule) and pointed this out to him, and asked whether it would be okay to house rule that this effective +2 to front armour also applies for Ramming other vehicles. He put his foot down pretty hard, saying that it was too overpowered for such a small cost and it didn't put it in the Codex so we shouldn't muck about with it. It just seems strange that it wouldn't though, maybe a more expensive option with the +2 for Ramming as well could be house ruled?
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The exact difference between a 'tank shock' and a 'ram' is actually a hotly debated topic with Ork players right now. It matters quite not a bit, not only for determining if they can perform a ram, but also if the deffrollas can be used upon opposing vehicles.
The confusion stems from the codex's statement: a 'ram' is a special kind of 'tank shock'.
What isn't clear is if all the rules that apply to tank shocks also apply to rams or not. It's up to you and your friend if the wargear and armory items that apply to tank shocks also all apply to rams, because the official FAQ hasn't covered it yet.
Personally, I assume the answer is no. I don't think abilities that affect tank shocks also affect ramming unless they specifically state that they do. This is based upon the point cost of the upgrades, as (I agree with your friend) they seem to be too low to confer this sort of benefit. If you'd like to use a house rule, I'd simply double the cost of the upgrade if you want them to have this ability.
Last edited by mynameisgrax; January 6th, 2010 at 16:23.
Reinforced Rams specifically state they only apply during Death or Glory, so there's no confusion.
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But can trukks with rams perform 'ram' attempts? The codex states that it allows them to tank shock, but it's unclear if that includes ramming.
I wish deffrollas had a similar clarification, as that's really the hotly debated topic at the tournaments I go to. I stopped using deffrollas there simply because I was tired of all the arguments.
reinforced ram makes you count as a tank tanks can tank shock and ram so that means a truck with a ram can ram something cause it counts as a tank your just doing it with your crap 10 front armor. Witch in a way i guess makes sence. Think of it like this.
an armored car is bullet proof and some are now a days small scale explosiv proof witch is awsome how ever if you take this same armored car and go raming a APC at 140 miles an hour well your armored car comes out looking alot like a coke can that got ran over.
I particularly do not see the confusion around this. If read carefully it makes sense. I could go on to critique the previous posts, but that would redirect my intention.
"A vehicle with a reinforced ram can Tank Shock, and treats its front armour as two (2) higher than normal when resolving Death or Glory attacks... Furthermore the vehicle may re-roll Dangerous Terrain tests."
The answer lies in the comma, and the "and". A Trukk cannot Tank Shock normally, as the Tank Shock ability is a Tank characteristic. Equipping a Reinforced Ram doesn't make the vehicle a tank (although there aren't many other characteristics of tanks in the rules).
A vehicle that can Tank Shock can make a special type of Tank Shock called a Ram. I'll restate this per quoting from the rules... "Ramming is a special type of Tank Shock move and is executed the same way, except the tank (normally a tank characteristic, but givin to the Trukk via equipped Reinforced Ram) must always move at the highest speed it is capable of."
I assume and will until GW says otherwise, that they intended to allow the crazy Orks to steer their insane contraptions into non-friendlies, regardless of the point cost comparison. After all, it's a reinforced ram, not just a ram.
I'm not entirely sure how you arrived at the conclusion that the "answer lies in the comma, and the 'and'". However, I am of the camp that a ram maneuver IS a tank shock. They are one and the same, both by concept and semantics, and the wording "special form of" only exists to distinguish how to resolve the effects of one over the other. That is, a ram has to be a tank shock to be a special form of it. However, there are arguments which support otherwise, and we're here to play a table-top wargame.. not argue over unclear rules. So, I always suggest you clear it with the event organizer prior to competitive events, or clear it with your foe prior to casual games. In the latter, if there still exists a disagreement, resort to a dice-off.
From a fluff standpoint, I suspect the difference lies in the judgment of the vehicle's driver/pilot, knowing better than to hit something.. anything.. as their vehicle is too fragile to survive. However, as is the case with Orks, they'd likely do it just for the fun of it, and reinforcing the vehicle with a ram would only solidify their conviction to crash into things. Although, their ramshackle trukks are likely to crush themselves upon impact (as the rules support, even), but Orks aren't exactly known for their prescience.
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Ah, yes! Exactly! My conclusion was from my understanding of the english language. To phrase as I read...
"A vehicle with a reinforced ram can Tank Shock (this means any type of Tank Shock and its special circumstances are included as BossGorestompa explains), and (the word 'and' here means: in addtion to, also, as well as. It is introducing a special case of the previously gained characteristic 'Tank Shock') treats its front armour as two (2) higher than normal when resolving Death or Glory attacks (notice that other vehicles/tanks do not normally get this bonus; it does not say anywhere even remotely that you can only attempt Death or Glory type attacks)... Furthermore the vehicle may re-roll Dangerous Terrain tests."
I completely agree with BossGorestompa, and I too make all efforts to avoid rule bashing, but that is what was brought up here. Bottom line; #1 is Have Fun!
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I think GW (Phil Kelly in particular) screwed the pooch on this one! Ramming is new to 5th right? As is ramming buildings which is also a minefield of inconsistency. Ramming is a subset of tank shock but is different from tank shock. I think they were better off having 4 separate rules, Tank shock, Ramming Vehicles, Ramming Buildings, Death or glory.
For example if you tank shock a infantry unit you can move at any speed you want but if you Ram then you have to move at max speed.
With that said however I think that you should try and imagine what was going through their heads when they wrote the rules. With the Orks in particular I believe that a reinforced RAM was intended for ramming, the clue is in the name but the subtext clearly states that the point increase is only for DoG attacks.
Defrolla is a bigger mess but my argument for them is that a battlewagon is HUGE being one of the biggest vehicles in the game. Also orks have nothing but a warboss with PK that can deal with landraiders and monooliths and I think thats what this was intended for.
My impression is that when you are ramming you'd want/have to move at max speed. The intention is to develop enough speed to do more damage. With Death or Glory, you are shocking the infantry units by attempting to move through them. It's more of a 'I'm bigger so you better get out of the way!' deal. Both have similar intentions, to use the might of the vehicle as an advantage, but the purpose is what sets them apart.
Yeah, definitely only a point increase to the DoG attacks. And the Trukk cannot make any sort of Tank Shock if it does not equip the ram. But I'm not sure anyone is debating that.
I haven't really seen or heard anything regarding the ramming of buildings, any scenarios in mind?
And the only thing that I see that might be confusing regarding the deffrolla is what 'in addition to the usual effects' means. Could you clarify what deffrolla mess?