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  1. #1
    The deep down truth Rikimaru's Avatar
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    The new Tyranids codex.

    OK I have spent the last few days reading the Tyranid codex and my god it is scary. I have held back commenting until I got the real thing in my hands but it seems as bad as I thought.

    An example, here is a 2000pts list I created after four hours of reading the codex, yes four hours.

    HQ
    Alpha Warrior:
    Boneswords, Deathspitter, Adrenal glands (AG give furious charge)
    Three Warriors
    Boneswords, Venom cannon, AG:
    Boneswords, Venom cannon:
    Boneswords, Barbed strangler, AG:
    Mycetic spore

    Elites
    Zoanthorpe brood (2 Zoans):
    Mycetic spore

    Deathleaper

    Troops
    Three Tervigons with Cluster spines and two with catalyst

    Three units of Tarmies

    Fast attack
    Shrike squad
    Rending claws, Venom cannon, AG
    Boneswords, Venom cannon, AG
    Bone swords, Barbed strangler, AG

    Harpy
    Cluster spines, TL heavy venom cannon, Regen

    Heavy support
    Mawloc

    Carnifex, strangleweb, and mycetic spore

    Just take a look at that:

    6 Boneswords = these hit with furious charge and no armour saves and any multiple wound model wounded takes a LDS test, if it fails it dies instantly. Bye bye XV8’s
    Four Venom cannons, nice STR6 blast (oh and the two VC in the Alpha squad use his BS, which is nice)
    A twin linked STR9 venom cannon on wings
    Carnie has a STR8 weapon and the Zoans have STR10 lance weapons.

    Six Monstrous creatures: A Carnifex in a Mycetic spore so no more walking slowly over the field and he has regen, he is in your lines immediately and hard to kill. Three Tervigons that generate units of Tarmies every turn, deep strike these using the Deathleapers pheromone trial (no scatter). Oh and the Harpy, my god this thing is evil, a TL Venom cannon and spore attacks, he is winged and while not amazing at CC, it is a MC in CC with Tau (yep that’s a good combination). Oh and did I mention the Tervigons are troops.

    Deathleaper: this thing is nasty, check his rules out.

    Mawloc, well the carnage this thing can wreak in a closely packed deployment zone is frightening.

    Then we have an Alpha Prime warrior with three Warriors. Yep TGH4 and a 4+ save is not brilliant but these are in a mycetic spore, they drop in your lines and hit you with two venom cannons, a deathspitter and a Barbed strangler when they arrive, ouch.
    Ok shoot them next turn, good luck killing them all (check the wound allocation set up on these). Then they assault with Boneswords ouch again. Problem here is all the other stuff in your lines (that Carnie and a Mawloc just for starters). Zoans straight in your lines via Mycetic spore, watch out vehicles as these have a STR10 lance weapon or a nice AP3 attack that deals with XV’s nicely thanks.
    Then we have the Shrike squad with those Venom cannons and quite evil assault capabilities.

    Ok just how in god’s name do we handle that lot and this is an unrefined first list. Mech up well good luck with that with 6 MC’s, Zoans, Harpy with STR9 VC and pretty much anything being able to destroy vehicles in CC (rear armour remember). Piranhas and Kroot blocking? No does not work because the Mycetic spores are basically drop pods and Deathleaper means no scatter if he is close enough. The Mawloc and Deathleaper will also negate the the blocking as well. Harpy and Shrike squad are winged so can just jump over Piranha’s and Kroot (oh and those numerous blasts do not help the Kroot).

    Fireknives: well you are going to need massed Markerlights to even dent those six MC’s with the Plasma. Railguns: oh yeah TGH6 MC’s SIX of them. Seriously this is just a skim over what this list can do.

    I thought Wolves were bad enough but this seems to just be created to nerf Tau. We have no CC units to even give us a slim chance of handling the assault units that WILL get into our lines. The list above shows it is possible to create an assault list that also packs a decent amount of shooting. Can we outshoot the list above? Well no not really, even the Tervigons have a nasty cluster spines attack and the rest of the shooting is spread throughout the army. Kroot are going to last two minutes with the amount of blast attacks and vehicles will not have the time to do their work because the list is so fast at getting into the lines. XV88’s are going to be no use at all because they will be closed down so fast. Those MC's will just soak up any shooting.

    It is a horror story, seriously it is. My 2000pts Tau list would last about two turns against this Nid list and like I said this is only a first attempt after reading the Codex for about four hours. If we meet Nids on a regular basis then Tau are going to struggle.

    Opinions, am I being too pessimistic or am I missing something, I know we always have the doom and gloom posts when new a new codex comes out and I usually just dismiss them but really this codex is going to give us problems.

    Last edited by Rikimaru; January 23rd, 2010 at 20:17.
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    The new nids codex is going to be really rough on us. The nids have lost immunity to instant death, but we don't have any weapons that can properly take advantage of that. At least with my IG I have S8+ large blasts for the Warriors and spammable Lascannons, or my DH where the GM can beat most MCs in CC. The three weapons we have that can ID warriors are single shot no blast.

    There is one ray of hope - I believe the time has finally come for Ion-cannons on hammerheads as they could cause more wounds on the MCs than a Railgun. But our best hope is a new codex which could be along way off.

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    wow i think this is the first time ive seen riki scared. . .its scaring me

    But yeah thanks for your post i was just about to make a thread asking what people think the new nid dex will do to us and yeah well i guess its never too late nor early to take up drinking lol

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    I am a free man! number6's Avatar
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    I think the SWs are actually much tougher for the Tau than the 'nids. I've been collecting 'nids for the past year and half in advance of the new codex, and I've already got lists in the works. (I've had an advance copy of the codex for a while now. And I'll have my first army built in a couple of weeks! Yeah!)

    The SWs have thunderwolves, which are nigh-unstoppable for anybody, but really spell doom for us. And the SW psyker powers are absolutely murder. The codex is so over-the-top as to almost be officially "broken". The recent SW FAQ only cemented that status in place.

    I'll take a 'nids matchup over SWs any day of the week.

    Beating the new 'nids will indeed be tougher than the old 'nids (the old 'nids codex sucked ... hard) but they look quite beatable by Tau. But -- in my opinion -- you're gonna have to follow my list-building advice to have a good shot at it.

    You need to stock up on fireknives to maximize armour-denying firepower. (Only the tyrannofex has a 2+ save. I don't think anybody will by the armour upgrade for tyrants.) That gives you 4+ to put wounds on the MCs with no saves. Absolutely critical to have this capability. Tervigons have to be popped ASAP; they are the 'nids version of Tau Pathfinders. They make the rest of the 'nid army stronger, faster, killier ... just way more efficient.

    And you'll need broadsides and railheads to instant death warriors and warrior primes.

    And you'll need Kroot to absorb initial charges by MCs and gribblies. Lots of Kroot. Piranhas will also be an absolute requirement to set up roadblocks and cause initial damage with flechettes. Threatening wounds on tervigons and other MCs are also absolutely critical.

    We must give the 'nid general something to think about other than simple-stupid charging into the Tau's face.

    And you absolutely cannot have foot FWs. Minimize them -- no more than a single unit of 6 because they just can't kill 'nids in any amount that is worth it. Tuck them in a devilfish and use the devilfish as a gunboat. Warfish will be the order of the day. You need that increased mobile firepower. Points spent on more guns like that are better than points spent on FWs.
    ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
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  7. #5
    The deep down truth Rikimaru's Avatar
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    724 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by number6 View Post
    I think the SWs are actually much tougher for the Tau than the 'nids. I've been collecting 'nids for the past year and half in advance of the new codex, and I've already got lists in the works. (I've had an advance copy of the codex for a while now. And I'll have my first army built in a couple of weeks! Yeah!)

    The SWs have thunderwolves, which are nigh-unstoppable for anybody, but really spell doom for us. And the SW psyker powers are absolutely murder. The codex is so over-the-top as to almost be officially "broken". The recent SW FAQ only cemented that status in place.

    I'll take a 'nids matchup over SWs any day of the week.

    Beating the new 'nids will indeed be tougher than the old 'nids (the old 'nids codex sucked ... hard) but they look quite beatable by Tau. But -- in my opinion -- you're gonna have to follow my list-building advice to have a good shot at it.

    You need to stock up on fireknives to maximize armour-denying firepower. (Only the tyrannofex has a 2+ save. I don't think anybody will by the armour upgrade for tyrants.) That gives you 4+ to put wounds on the MCs with no saves. Absolutely critical to have this capability. Tervigons have to be popped ASAP; they are the 'nids version of Tau Pathfinders. They make the rest of the 'nid army stronger, faster, killier ... just way more efficient.

    And you'll need broadsides and railheads to instant death warriors and warrior primes.

    And you'll need Kroot to absorb initial charges by MCs and gribblies. Lots of Kroot. Piranhas will also be an absolute requirement to set up roadblocks and cause initial damage with flechettes. Threatening wounds on tervigons and other MCs are also absolutely critical.

    We must give the 'nid general something to think about other than simple-stupid charging into the Tau's face.

    And you absolutely cannot have foot FWs. Minimize them -- no more than a single unit of 6 because they just can't kill 'nids in any amount that is worth it. Tuck them in a devilfish and use the devilfish as a gunboat. Warfish will be the order of the day. You need that increased mobile firepower. Points spent on more guns like that are better than points spent on FWs.
    Sorry but how will your list stop that list I posted? Three FK units and a few railguns is not going to stop six (count em) MC's with most of them at TGH6 with lots of wounds. Your list has one lot of Markerlights (even if you put two in 2000pts you are still struggling). So your FK units would have to focus fire on one MC to destroy it or have two FK units hitting on 4+, the MC's get saves against Missile pods and three Plasma's are not going to remove 4/5 or even 6 wounds (dependent on MC). No insta kill from the Railguns on TGH6 and the Kroot and Piranhas are nerfed by the flying units, Mycetic spores, Mawloc and Deathleaper, all get past Kroot and Piranhas easily.

    There is no way to stop this army getting to your lines, it can also put out some quite nasty shooting and CC, well lets just say god help any Tau list that this lot close to.
    Even Mech is no defence and the blockading tactic simply does not work. Even Kroot bubble wrap fails badly because models are simply moved out of the way of the spores and the spores simply move to avoid terrain.

    XV88's are sitting ducks and unless you take 9 they cannot begin to deal with what is being thrown at them, fine hit the Warriors and Prime but what about all the other stuff that is in your face? Four Railguns will not be enough and they will not have the time to shoot anyway, my list is even worse because it only has two RG's (list rethink on the horizon)

    So please tell me exactly how your 2000pts list (remember mine follows pretty much the same tactics) is going to stop the list I posted. What needs remembering is that list is not even refined, it is a first attempt, just look at it and what it can do for a 1st attempt. Imagine two Harpys or some Tyranofex's or two Tyrants with guard etc etc, you get the idea.

    Sorry but even massed Fireknives are simply not going to cut it against the massed MC lists we are going to see, not without massed ML support but that means we lose out on firepower in other areas to pay for it and even with 6MC's there is often going to be other stuff on top of them. Blockading is badly reduced in effectiveness and the kroot can only do so much.

    There are simply to many ways in the codex that enable Nids to close lists down fast and that is terrible for Tau (same problem applies with Wolves to a point).

    Just that one list I posted gives me pause for thought, god knows what it is going to be like when the codex is really understood.
    Last edited by Rikimaru; January 20th, 2010 at 15:58.
    1984

  8. #6
    I am a free man! number6's Avatar
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    We may need to take this to another forum. (??) But in all honesty, your list doesn't scare me much. Here's how a Tau army should be able to dismantle it.

    If you had three mawlocs, or could put at least 3 MCs in my face at once. In other words, if your list could saturate me with too many targets before I could deal with it, then I might be worried. And there are 'nid lists that could do that. I came to my own 'nid list constructions with the specific idea of beating my Tau (which I consider one of the strongest 40K army builds anywhere).

    One mawloc is meh. Deployment is key here. Read the deep strike rules on p. 95. You must place the model down on the table before rolling the scatter dice. Have you seen how big that base is? Deploy in a loose anti-deep strike castle in a corner of the table -- like you always should anyway when facing deep strikers -- and the mawloc can't really hurt you. Firstly, it would have to be placed outside your castle. And secondly, it would have to scatter directly into your castle to do any damage. And thirdly, if you deployed loosely enough, you shouldn't be at risk to lose more than a couple of suits, maybe some Kroot as well, maybe take a S6 hit on the rear armour of a vehicle.

    In other words, 1 mawloc is annoying, but not actually that dangerous. No matter what it does -- and the odds are it won't do too much -- shoot it down. Killing the single MC that is in front of you should be no trouble for a good Tau army list. One that has lots of railguns and plasma, that is.

    Now, if you had three mawlocs ... OK. You've got my attention. I'd be legitimately concerned.

    But all that comes later. Let's start with game turn 1. You've got three tervigons, which aren't really threatening in the early game, but admittedly need to be killed. However, those flying shrikes got to go. But there's only 3 of them. Either you reserve them, or they will die. And I'd be surprised if I didn't have at least a few shots left over to punk into the Prime unit as well.

    2nd turn is where things get interesting. But odds are you'll get just 1-2 of the things you reserved. Worst case scenario is both the carnifex and mawloc arrive on turn 2, and both are in my face. My 2000 pt list has enough firepower to take down both. (4 railguns, 20 plasma shots, 20 MP shots, plus assorted S5 weaponry scattered throughout for good measure) But even if things go terribly wrong, I've got Kroot buffers to absorb any initial damage these beasties -- particularly the carnifex -- might do. Kill the mawloc first (nearly guaranteed kill) and kill off the carnifex 2nd. If not totally successful, feed the carnifex some Kroot and then kill it the next turn.

    It's turn 3 now, and all the MCs save the tervigons are at least handled, and the only actual threat to the army left is the prime unit of warriors and/or the zoanthropes, assuming they're on the table by now. Just continue down the target priority checklist until the army is defeated.

    I'm not saying this will be a cakewalk. But I am saying the 'nid army you posted provides obvious target priorities each and every game turn. And the thing that Tau totally excel at is eliminating any unit (or limited number of units) within single game turns. It's what the army is actually designed by GW to do well. So long as a Tau army is not overloaded with too many targets, it can fight its way to victory. (It's how I win my games. )

    Here's the 2000 pt 'nid list I designed that totally beats my Tau army's face in most of the time.

    HQ
    [255 pts] Hive Tyrant, psychic scream, leech essence, 2x scything talons, wings, hive commander
    [255 pts] Hive Tyrant, psychic scream, leech essence, 2x scything talons, wings, hive commander

    Elite
    [160 pts] 2 Zoanthropes; Mycetic Spore
    [160 pts] 2 Zoanthropes; Mycetic Spore
    [140 pts] Deathleaper

    Troop
    [50 pts] 10 Termagants
    [165 pts] Tervigon, scything talons
    [50 pts] 10 Termagants
    [165 pts] Tervigon, scything talons

    Heavy
    [200 pts] Carnifex, 2x scything talons; Mycetic Spore
    [200 pts] Carnifex, 2x scything talons; Mycetic Spore
    [200 pts] Trygon

    Total: 2000 pts

    The entire army goes into reserves and looks to go 2nd if at all possible. (Thus denying 2 full turns of enemy shooting.) On the 'nid turn 2, everything comes down on a 2+, and everything deep strikes into position. I can have up to 4 spores, 4 zoeys, and 5 MCs all in your face. Plus Deathleaper. Plus the option of outflanking at least 1 tervigon (make that 6 MCs, then!) and some termagants for funsies dropping scoring units and screening units downfield as well. Leave 1 tervigon and some termagants back home to secure home objectives, do all the fighting in the enemy's half of the table.

    Everything deep strikes safely (there's really no risk to the tyrants either since they have wings and can be dropped somewhat farther away for total safety) and it's just too many MCs too close too fast for my Tau to reasonably handle. Overload!
    Last edited by number6; January 20th, 2010 at 17:11.
    ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
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    The new nids are certainly scary.

    They make it very hard to go for the objectives in some missions. Kill points don't worry me so much, but in the objective based missions I feel the best I can hope for is a draw.

    We may have to look into some different suit configurations and seeker missiles just got a lot better IMHO since they can instant kill the warrior type creatures.

    To be honest the monsterous creatures don't bother me, it's the smaller things. The monsterous creatures just buy time for the little tackers to get there.
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    Bah! I'm not scared of any Nids!

    ...mostly because I've yet to play a game against them.

    Still, it's looking like if I ever get my army painted, I'll be in for a few rude suprises. ^^;

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    Quote Originally Posted by number6 View Post
    We may need to take this to another forum. (??) But in all honesty, your list doesn't scare me much. Here's how a Tau army should be able to dismantle it.

    If you had three mawlocs, or could put at least 3 MCs in my face at once. In other words, if your list could saturate me with too many targets before I could deal with it, then I might be worried. And there are 'nid lists that could do that. I came to my own 'nid list constructions with the specific idea of beating my Tau (which I consider one of the strongest 40K army builds anywhere).

    One mawloc is meh. Deployment is key here. Read the deep strike rules on p. 95. You must place the model down on the table before rolling the scatter dice. Have you seen how big that base is? Deploy in a loose anti-deep strike castle in a corner of the table -- like you always should anyway when facing deep strikers -- and the mawloc can't really hurt you. Firstly, it would have to be placed outside your castle. And secondly, it would have to scatter directly into your castle to do any damage. And thirdly, if you deployed loosely enough, you shouldn't be at risk to lose more than a couple of suits, maybe some Kroot as well, maybe take a S6 hit on the rear armour of a vehicle.

    In other words, 1 mawloc is annoying, but not actually that dangerous. No matter what it does -- and the odds are it won't do too much -- shoot it down. Killing the single MC that is in front of you should be no trouble for a good Tau army list. One that has lots of railguns and plasma, that is.

    Now, if you had three mawlocs ... OK. You've got my attention. I'd be legitimately concerned.

    But all that comes later. Let's start with game turn 1. You've got three tervigons, which aren't really threatening in the early game, but admittedly need to be killed. However, those flying shrikes got to go. But there's only 3 of them. Either you reserve them, or they will die. And I'd be surprised if I didn't have at least a few shots left over to punk into the Prime unit as well.

    2nd turn is where things get interesting. But odds are you'll get just 1-2 of the things you reserved. Worst case scenario is both the carnifex and mawloc arrive on turn 2, and both are in my face. My 2000 pt list has enough firepower to take down both. (4 railguns, 20 plasma shots, 20 MP shots, plus assorted S5 weaponry scattered throughout for good measure) But even if things go terribly wrong, I've got Kroot buffers to absorb any initial damage these beasties -- particularly the carnifex -- might do. Kill the mawloc first (nearly guaranteed kill) and kill off the carnifex 2nd. If not totally successful, feed the carnifex some Kroot and then kill it the next turn.

    It's turn 3 now, and all the MCs save the tervigons are at least handled, and the only actual threat to the army left is the prime unit of warriors and/or the zoanthropes, assuming they're on the table by now. Just continue down the target priority checklist until the army is defeated.

    I'm not saying this will be a cakewalk. But I am saying the 'nid army you posted provides obvious target priorities each and every game turn. And the thing that Tau totally excel at is eliminating any unit (or limited number of units) within single game turns. It's what the army is actually designed by GW to do well. So long as a Tau army is not overloaded with too many targets, it can fight its way to victory. (It's how I win my games. )

    Here's the 2000 pt 'nid list I designed that totally beats my Tau army's face in most of the time.

    HQ
    [255 pts] Hive Tyrant, psychic scream, leech essence, 2x scything talons, wings, hive commander
    [255 pts] Hive Tyrant, psychic scream, leech essence, 2x scything talons, wings, hive commander

    Elite
    [160 pts] 2 Zoanthropes; Mycetic Spore
    [160 pts] 2 Zoanthropes; Mycetic Spore
    [140 pts] Deathleaper

    Troop
    [50 pts] 10 Termagants
    [165 pts] Tervigon, scything talons
    [50 pts] 10 Termagants
    [165 pts] Tervigon, scything talons

    Heavy
    [200 pts] Carnifex, 2x scything talons; Mycetic Spore
    [200 pts] Carnifex, 2x scything talons; Mycetic Spore
    [200 pts] Trygon

    Total: 2000 pts

    The entire army goes into reserves and looks to go 2nd if at all possible. (Thus denying 2 full turns of enemy shooting.) On the 'nid turn 2, everything comes down on a 2+, and everything deep strikes into position. I can have up to 4 spores, 4 zoeys, and 5 MCs all in your face. Plus Deathleaper. Plus the option of outflanking at least 1 tervigon (make that 6 MCs, then!) and some termagants for funsies dropping scoring units and screening units downfield as well. Leave 1 tervigon and some termagants back home to secure home objectives, do all the fighting in the enemy's half of the table.

    Everything deep strikes safely (there's really no risk to the tyrants either since they have wings and can be dropped somewhat farther away for total safety) and it's just too many MCs too close too fast for my Tau to reasonably handle. Overload!
    not te be harsh, but the mawloc can deep strike into assualt, go and ask GW, its in the pre-FAQ theyve already resolved it, not to go and get my nids.

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    Quote Originally Posted by john13 View Post
    not te be harsh, but the mawloc can deep strike into assualt, go and ask GW, its in the pre-FAQ theyve already resolved it, not to go and get my nids.
    Deep-striking into assault? I'll believe it when I see it. Gotta see an official FAQ for that, as very few units can deep strike and then assault immediately after. SM Vanguard Vets come to mind. But the Mawloc has no such stipulation right now. In fact, that would clearly be an Errata and not a FAQ, as that adds a totally new rule to the Mawloc that it doesn't currently have.
    ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
    RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014

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