FanDex review/comments requested - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    Por'vre T'olku Shien
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    FanDex review/comments requested

    I'm currently helping with a tau FanDex project over on another site. The project is going well (still filtering through some ideas and filtering out others), but the more people who contribute something constructive the better. I'm posting the link to the PDF download, the page also has a View Online button if you want.

    Tau TODex v300.pdf - File Shared from Box.net - Free Online File Storage

    Remember, please be constructive. Try to give reasons for your arguments, as they will make it easier to make the changes. Before you say it, yes, the codex is a bit too strong atm. Any suggestions on how to tone it down without losing its identity will be appreciated. Not sure if it's ok to post the topic link, since it's on another forum, but I'll be carrying anything I see over there if it sounds even somewhat reasonable.

    Also keep in mind that it's very unlikely that new unit suggestions will be taken, as the codex is quite sizable already.

    I fight for the Greater Good. Too bad for you it's MY Greater Good.

    Snow Forces of T'olku W/L/D : 3-4-2... I like to think I'm learning, though.

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  3. #2
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    The codex is great, and there are many creative and simple-but-effective ideas in here. It certainly sounds fun to play - but you're right in that many things are waaaay too cheap. The commander is an obvious one ~85 points for the EL and ~125 for the O strikes me as sensible base. I could go on, but I'm lazy.

    Just make comparisons to real codexes, and think about the levels at which they balance things. Have you tried playtesting this codex yet?

  4. #3
    Por'vre T'olku Shien
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    We have some people trying to playtest, but you know how it goes. Many people don't like testing against a FanDex, and you can't get a decent game against yourself. Two people have games in the next couple of days
    I fight for the Greater Good. Too bad for you it's MY Greater Good.

    Snow Forces of T'olku W/L/D : 3-4-2... I like to think I'm learning, though.

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    I sympathise with your difficulties regarding playtesting completely. However, you've got a team of people working on it, so it should be more easier to keep on expanding the idea and it's usage base. Keep showing people it, keep talking about it, keep being enthusiastic. You may make a wave yet!

    On topic, I have a few rules queries regarding the PDF I'd like to iron out. Methinks a few of them are just down to typos, but I'd rather check.

    - The Mont'Ka power aids the arrival of reserves this turn, but is activated during the Shooting phase so cannot possibly do so.

    - Ethereal "Influences" sounds a little too magicky. Nothing serious, but perhaps Insights, or Commands?

    - On p8 Vectored Retro Thrusters are said to grant a jetpack-like move to Crisis suits - but in the Hazard suit entry, it refers to the suits being granted HnR BY Vectored Retro Thrusters. I imagine you are just trying to explain the source of the Hazard suits' Hit and Run ability, but it could confuse people into think VRT grants both jetpack movement and hit'n'run/

    - While I imagine this is for balancing purposes, the difference in stats between different units of 'Vre rank is unusual. Perhaps just make it so all 'Ui ranks have +1 WS and Ld, and all 'Vre +1 BS and A?

    - Listing the Kroot Beast as an item of Wargear for Raider Kindreds is unnecessary

    - Only list special items of wargear in any Special Character entry. Save the bitty details for the army list.

    - Sharpe is an awesome special character, but the name is not Kroot like at all. Again, minor but it niggles me

    Otherwise, I think everything is spot on. : )If you'd like, I can cover points costs and balance etc.

  6. #5
    Por'vre T'olku Shien
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    Thanks for the review.

    Battlenet abilities are changing so that one doesn't have to be adressed, and Ethereal Influences are changing to 4 caste-affiliation special abilities (thus, "influence" with that caste). Kroot Beast was a typo, as are the redundant stuff in the Special character entries. Sharpe was a working name, something about the inspiration for it. He'll be renamed eventually. As well, the 'Vre ability irregularity is intentional. Each suit pilot has different experience to draw on depending on what they've been piloting for 8 years, but it is an interesting point.

    I'll go ahead and convey that and the VRT. Any comments on balance/points are also welcome.
    Last edited by PsyBomb; January 23rd, 2010 at 00:42.
    I fight for the Greater Good. Too bad for you it's MY Greater Good.

    Snow Forces of T'olku W/L/D : 3-4-2... I like to think I'm learning, though.

  7. #6
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    Okay, I did a quick run-over of Troops, Fast Attack and a few general pointers. Excuse poor grammar in places. If I don't bring something up, that means I think works.

    General: Shas’Ui (and poss vre) having 2 A? Bit heavy
    Target lock is referenced in unit coices, but not in wargear sction – only Advanced Target Lock. ???

    Fire warriors: EMP’s should be 5pts for whole unit – fluffwise, not too hard for tau to manufacture, game wise tau fire warriors are too useless in any sort of combat to merit high price and shouldn’t be in contact with vehicle anyway. Survival chances in combat with dred are barely improved, and the dif between a 6-man and 10-man squad in effectiveness with EMP’s is negligible. Plus 5 is neat
    How does Ui upgrade work with unit of Vre elites?
    Gun Drones for Ui deffo aren’t worth 10 pts. 5 would be right for a handy support gun as they are
    Unless there is something special about them like before, marker drones are only worth 15pts
    Is it really sensible to have the drone controller lose his weapons? I feel it’s harsh considering the limited effectiveness of the drones themselves, especially when the Ui could to the job themselves better at times for less

    Kroot Carnivores: Standard Carnivores are just a tad too cheap for the threat they pose – 9pts? Or is that too fussy, I dunno
    Many of the adaptations are just a bit expensive. While one point for +1 I would be too cheap, how about 15/20 pts for the entire unit? Similarly, 25pts for +1T and reroll to wound, 10-15 for fleet and 5+ save, 10pts for acute sense and 25+pts for inv. save?
    Why 14 points for the shaper? 15 is far neater for only a tiny difference in value
    5pts at most for the Shaper’s long kroot hunting rifle – a single heavy sniper attack at the cost of mobile fire and combat prowess ain’t worth that much!
    Sharpe should have his wargear and rules included in the unit entry

    Kroot Raiders: The limitation imposed by having equal to or less carnivore units in one’s army is fluffy, but harsh due to costs. Maybe have as many as you like so long as there’s at least on carnivore unit?
    Blood hunter ought to referenced with all the other Kroot adaptations, and they should all be spate from the carnivore entry, like librarian powers
    Same stuff on adaptations, shapers and hunting rifles as for carnivores

    Devilfish: Considering it’s like of fire points and poor starting armaments, i’d consider making the Devilfish cheaper than a chimera, even as a skimmer. At most 50pts?
    As a compulsory upgrade, the cheapest of the weapon drone options-type should be included in the vehicle’s starting wargear and points. The weapon drones in particular should all be cheaper, too – 10pts for carbines, 20 for rail rifles, 30 for m.lights. The smart missile system, shield drones and h.burst cannon could probably be cheaper, too, but it isn’t necessary
    Decoy launchers, the disruption pod and target lock should probably be more expensive, if only by 5 points. Targeting array and the sensor spines should definitely be more pricey.
    This is irrelevant, the manta drop is an excellent idea, and is damn nice to see after Space Marines got all their drop pod love
    Considering it’s bonafide limitations in return for it’s limited and highly-situational ability, and also for fluff reasons, I feel compelled to say the medbay should only cost 10points, despite how good FNP looks on paper.

    Pathfinders: Basic Models ought to be a little more expensive for it’s potency (not to mention accuracy, which strikes me as questionable fluffwise – maybe they have targeting arrays?) – about 15/16 pts would do
    Again, EMP’s should be a cheap all-unit upgrade – the diversity is not that great!
    Considering the loss of m.light, the rail rifle and t.l. upgrade should be cheaper, around 5-8 pts makes sense
    Same notes on drones for the Ui

    Tetra Jetbikes: As any heavy duty template weapon, or any lightweight assault specialist unit with some speed, can take them out easily, and they are not that useful when shooting either, I’d reduce the points to 30-35pts. Yes, they’re tough against small arms fire and fast, but they just don’t have the punch and universal survival to justify the points
    Conversely, the Multi Tracker should more expensive, as both a markerlight token and anti-infantry fire at once is very useful indeed

    Drone Squadrons: A larger unit size of 12 would allow the unit to perform better as an irritating disruptive threat without being unfluffy. I’d certainly like to take them in a large unit, tho obv. Not snipers or heavys, as they’d be too expensive
    Heavy Flamers aside, the low accuracy of the gun drones makes fusion blasters and missile pods as they stand rather inefficient. Adjusting the points on these is tricky tho; my best suggestion is 8 points for f.blaster, 13 for m.pod?
    Similarly, the ion rifle and plasma rifle should definitely be cheaper for heavy drones, at ~5pts less.

    Fusiliers: Strike me as one of the better balanced more interesting units in the army, if a little limited in scope. The limit in numbers like with trackers is, again, harsh
    Vespid Strains: I honestly couldn’t comment. They appear to be balanced enough, but such a different and revolutionary unit will require a lot of playtesting.
    Elders is a nice bonus, but should probably be cheaper for a combat upgrade on a shooting unit. Again, I’m uncertain.

    Piranhas: An extra point of side armour and no more open-topped for such a fragile, punch-lacking unit is definitely not worth 10 pts, especially when you are losing all basic weaponry in the process. At either 5 pts or free, plus the price of compulsory weaponry, such a squadron may be balanced.


    I am happy to cover Heavy support and Elites next.

  8. #7
    Por'vre T'olku Shien
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    FWs: I'll get that question passed along, I don't think the 'Vre upgrade is worth taking if you lose the 'Ui options.
    Carnivores are identical to the current ones, with the adaptations added. I agree that the adaptations a hair expensive, but better to err on that side than to make them too cheap.
    Devilfish is not going that low, due to a combination of armor, decent weapons, and Wargear options. Medbay is actually on the verge of being taken out or given more restrictions due to power concerns, it playtested out to be horrifically strong.
    Remember on Piranhas that if you get the TX-42 upgrade it gets a TL-Fusion standard. Thus, it works out as inexpensive, and I buy the upgrade on each one I take.

    next version is out, and likely more before long due to a couple of mechanic changes that are being ironed out. Link is at...

    Tau TODex v316.pdf - File Shared from Box.net - Free Online File Storage

    A lot of balancing also took place, and a couple of new mechanics. Battlenet changed as well (and will change more, we're still trying to nail down the right concept). Testing out a rule that will let XV8s use their guns in CC, actually looks to be working out fair.
    I fight for the Greater Good. Too bad for you it's MY Greater Good.

    Snow Forces of T'olku W/L/D : 3-4-2... I like to think I'm learning, though.

  9. #8
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    Hmmm . . .I'm going to have to disagree on a number of points.

    +3 points per head is definitely too much for +1 toughness, considering how Chaos space Marines only pay on average 5 for theirs. I go through the process similarly for the others, and they ought to be cheaper. The best resolution would be an expensive squad upgrade. I just wouldn't buy the adaptation for the costs. How're they playtesting?

    I am serious about the Devilfish's price. A Chimera APC is kicking it's ass soundly at those prices. It's armaments are weak and expensive, and it is lacking (just a little) in armour. It's only advantage real advantage is it's skimmer status and that it transports Tau, and costing over 70 points min. doesn't justify it to me.

    The Medbay is broken? Wow. What armies have you been playing against? Vs. Tank heavy guard especially, the bay struck me as a not very good. I supose it has it's uses in the assault phase though . . .

    Once again, I simply would not pay 55 pts for a flying tl fusion gun that is a TX-42, nermind the other units. It will drop like a fly, has a puny output (esp. concerning range for the fusion gun) and has nothing else special really. One shot, and gone. I'd say cheaper.

    The changes made to the new addition are good and easier to follow (though a few areas such as wargear listing in unit descriptions haven't been dealt with), but one is not good. The Ethereal "Price of Failure" rules change was one of the best alternatives to the current one I've ever heard, and now it's basically the old one again. It is a little questionable fluffwise, and is awkward on the tabletop. It just bugs me.

    Keep it up!

  10. #9
    Por'vre T'olku Shien
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    That version came up before your concerns got relayed over He pops out a new one every 2-3 days, so expect the next round to come out (and likely with most or all of the concerns dealt with) rather soon.

    And the Medbay turns the squad into something unpleasantly close to shooty Plague Marine when dealing with anything S5 or less. That's most of the weapons in the game, makes it so that heavies have to focus on the FW squad instead of things like our Hammerheads.
    I fight for the Greater Good. Too bad for you it's MY Greater Good.

    Snow Forces of T'olku W/L/D : 3-4-2... I like to think I'm learning, though.

  11. #10
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    Ahh. well that's cleared a few things up. Sorry if I came off impatient, I didn't know that was how the system worked.

    The more I think about it, the more powerful the medbay strikes me. While the comparison to Plague Marines is a very gross exaggeration, I can see it being quite nasty when used on Pathfinders. I'm thinking 25 pts? about the same price as other FNP-granting upgrades in other armies, without being too expensive to work.

    So how is your team organised? There's a writer obviously, but what else?

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