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hi i was just wondering, termis as fodder then homras rushing until bigger stuff get there, do we really need homries? ya its 3 on the charge and stuff but they dont kill very much. plus with new rules other swuads can join cc. should i just have scythe gaunts for 6 points rush all squads then have stealers get up there. to be honest, there are alot of thousand son players where i live, and my hormies just die like girls. sure the termies take the hits but my ho0rmies dont kill ne thing. i have 2 squads of 16. most of the time all of them make it there. thats alot of attacks, but i only end up with about 5-6 wounds. most get saved and if not, they have 2 wounds each. and their termies are killer! they take out everything. so should i just forget homries and termies and just make alot of scythe gaunte ( no leaping) at each squad of his until 2 squads of 10 stealers get there?
...accuracy by numbers...
i played a game against vanilla marines the other day. it was 1200 points and i had 32 guants i call sliceguants(leaping, scything talons) and 16 spineguants. to be honest, every single one of my guants died. every one. but all those shots, were not hitting my warriors, tyrant and fex. common strategy when fighting against nids is to shoot the fastest stuff first. my gaunts will tend to rush stright forwards. my fex and tyrant (usually winged with 2 scything talons) will move forwards but taking advantage of terrin in preferance then using their full movement. the gaunts move up block line of sight abnd take his attention off my warriors and tyrants and such.
guants are essential to a tyranid victory. their uses are inumerable. shoot the big ones, well the little ones will bring u down with sheer weight of numbers. and the other way around.
<insert witty remark here>
First spinegaunts are more effective than termagaunts.
Second Hormagaunts rock! They are fast, and without them, I probably wouldn't be doing so well. Too many genestealers is a very bad thing. Points wise they are not worth having more than 2 squads. I normally take as many spinegaunts as hormies and 12 genestealers in a 1500 point game. Go spine gaunts! :lol:
You call those cheap implants boobs?
They aren't boobs, they're lies!
spine gaunts. are they just gaunts (4pt) and spinefist (1pt)? or do u have leaping aswell making them 8pts?
...accuracy by numbers...
First of all hormagaunts aren`t great to take, especially against marines as WS 3 or 4 both require same roll to hit another WS 4 model.
Try using the mutable genus in back of codex give leapers +1S instead of the WS for an extra point (see deathgaunt example) and 1/4 of all attacks should theoretically cause a wound compared to 1/6 with a Hormagaunt
10% point increase for 50% increase in wounds :lol:
As for making them walking rather than leaping..... I have to admit I`m tempted to do the same with mine as all models within 2" now get full attacks (4th edition) you can still support the shooty gaunts as well as before unless you have a seriously large amount of guants to be needing the 4" that leaping gives <_<
As mentioned by Red_Talon spineguants are much more effective..... :wacko: well cost efficient, than termagaunts.
Having looked at the gaunt math in many feverish sessions (I have spreadsheet after spreadsheet of the stuff), I have one simple piece of advice: don't upgrade. It's never worth it. Here's a simple example. A squad of nine hormagaunts will, on average, inflict 2.48 wounds in a round of combat. For the same points, a squad of ten cheapogaunts (scy. tal./leaping) will inlict 2.49 wounds and have one more wound with which to soak up damage. The weapon-skill upgrade actually lowers the number of wounds low-point gaunts will do by lowering the number of attacks they get. The upgrade will start to add to the number of wounds inflicted by higher-point gaunts, but higher-point gaunts are still losing wounds compared to their cheaper cousins.
The toxin sacks ultimateMADMAN suggested will increase ninety points' worth of gaunts' number of wounds to 2.67 per combat phase. Thus, you're gaining .18 wounds over the nine-point gaunts. . . . but you're losing 1.82 wounds by making your unit smaller.
When it comes to gaunts, there is no real way to gain ground by paying for upgrades. The close-combat gaunts that can inflict the most wounds for the points and have the most wounds themselves are simple, six-point scy. tal. gaunts.
However, some upgrades are difficult or impossible to consider in terms of wound value. Although initiative can be quantified, any quantification would be misleading because if the sharp curve in the initiative scale around three and four. Pursuantly, the value of initiative upgrades is entirely situational. Against an army with mostly fours for initiative, upgrading your gaunts from four to five could be the best decision you make. Against an army with mostly threes, it would be the worst.
Leaping and winged are also difficult to quantify, as they are both matters of added utility rather than numerical improvement. Personally, I like leaping for the extra charge range and the ability to pile cheapogaunts into the fray. Winged, on the other hand, is very expensive and somewhat double edged--the loss of the ability to enter difficult terrain is very damaging. These two are all a matter of play style.
Similar to the close-combat examples above, ranged-combat specialized gaunts are at their best when they're at their cheapest. Termagants do slightly fewer wounds than spinefist/enhanced senses gaunts at the same point cost. Both of these do fewer wounds and have fewer wounds than the one-point-cheaper devourer-equipped gaunt ("devogaunt," as I like to call it). There is an interesting tradeoff when you're comparing devogaunts to spinegaunts--the devogaunts do more wounds in shooting, but spinegaunts make up for it in close combat and their ability to take more damage. Hence, spinegaunts are better if you just want cannon fodder to blindly charge the enemy; devogaunts are better if you want a genuinely shooty unit that you attempt to keep out of harm's way. Incidentally, if devogaunts do suit your playing style more, upgrading them with enhanced senses will allow them to do slightly more wounds, albeit at a fairly hefty cost in numbers.
Now, what was the question? Oh, right, hormagaunts. If you prefer to fill your ranks with shooting gaunts instead, that can be a very powerful strategy. If (like me) you like scything leapers, I recommend the talons and leaping and nothing else. If you already have some hormagaunts in playing shape, there's no modelling change required--just remember to play with the right stat line.
thank you and good night
Well, with the new rules in place, you can, sort of "screen" your army. Granted, they will always be able to shoot the larger 'nids, but, if your spine gaunts are in front, they will have to take those tests to see if they want to shoot any of the other more useful gaunts behind. But then, the spine gaunts get there, tie them down in CC, and allow for the rest of the army to move in.
As for upgrades, that's a different topic altogether .
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To start with, even without the charge and the basic 2 attacks on a creature with WS4 T4 a standard gaunt with no upgrade hits on 4+ and wounds on 5+.Originally posted by Holothuria@Sep 6 2004, 05:40
The toxin sacks ultimateMADMAN suggested will increase ninety points' worth of gaunts' number of wounds to 2.67 per combat phase. Thus, you're gaining .18 wounds over the nine-point gaunts. . . . but you're losing 1.82 wounds by making your unit smaller.[snapback]208490[/snapback]
So your brood of 10 gets:-
20 Attacks = 10 hits
10 hits = 3.333333 wounds
(or 5 wounds on charge)
They cost more than 8 Deathgaunts 4+ to hit 4+ to wound
16 Attacks = 8 hits
8 hits = 4 wounds
(or 6 wounds on charge)
While I agree that for the loss of the wounds taking the upgrades may not be worth it. I always field gaunts in broods of 16. Having the upgrades is definitely worth the points.
16 basic leapers = 8 wounds on charge
16 deathguants = 12 wounds on charge
The extra points are very well spent IMO. The added bonus is that I will get 16 wounds against T3 opponents too Mmmmmmm dead Eldar :lol:
I believe that leaping gaunts tend to be more about prference than right or wrong choices.
You can get almost 20 leapers for the same cost of 16 deathgaunts.
***Tip*** If you field gaunts in multiples of 8, you don`t end up with half boxes of unused models
Originally posted by Korias@Sep 5 2004, 23:20
Well, with the new rules in place, you can, sort of "screen" your army.Ā* Granted, they will always be able to shoot the larger 'nids, but, if your spine gaunts are in front, they will have to take those tests to see if they want to shoot any of the other more useful gaunts behind.Ā* But then, the spine gaunts get there, tie them down in CC, and allow for the rest of the army to move in.
As for upgrades, that's a different topic altogether .[snapback]208503[/snapback]
In the Codex Upgrades for 4th edition nids, GW say that everyone pass the leadership test for not shooting the nearest model.
so we canĀ“t use our gants for avoid some shoots .... <_<
Right, and how many games do you play against models with exclusively w.s. 4 and t. 4? The numbers I used are averages across all the toughness levels. This isn't taking into account the preponderance of certain numbers (threes and fours), but it's still a good guidepost to the statistical trends. Regardless of your method, there's no point on the scale where you're gaining more wounds than you're losing by upgrading, except on the charge against toughness-seven enemies. If you face a lot of those, I recommend the strength upgrade, too.Originally posted by ultimateMADMAN@Sep 6 2004, 059
To start with, even without the charge and the basic 2 attacks on a creature with WS4 T4 a standard gaunt with no upgrade hits on 4+ and wounds on 5+.[snapback]208583[/snapback]
I suppose it's a silly thing to be arguing. If you want to have maximum striking power, take the strength upgrade. If you want to improve the survivability of your gaunt units and their chances of forcing fall back through sheer weight of numbers, don't take it.
thank you and good night