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Hello again servants of the Star Gods!
This week we are going to be covering a unit I somehow missed doing a Red Harvest article for, way back when.
At the first call to eternal life, there were doubters among the masses of the Necrontyr. These were the doubters, the truly faithful leapt into the arms of their divine masters. Forming the first ranks of cold, metallic death that would soon enslave the galaxy, these Immortals are among the most powerful troops at the C'tans' disposal. Wielding gauss blasters, to which no man-wieldable armament can compare. These lumbering automatons form an unbreakable heart in the center of a Necron force as it reaps the gift of life from those undeserving.
Immortals are essentially the elite, heavy version of Necron warriors, tougher, harder hitting and more expensive than their younger counterparts. As such they are far more effective in nearly all aspects of battle, especially when it comes time to bring the pain in the shooting phase, or to laugh at incoming fire (short of demolisher blasts, those admittedly still hurt).
So Necrons, how do you use your Immortals? What experiences have you had with them in the past? And what has worked best and worst for you in game?
Well... Fortunately, I had the opportunity to assemble and paint my 10 immortals over the holidays, played a few games with them and I love them!
In a phalanx formation, they serve the role of the lord's bodyguard extremely when it comes to shooting and being shot at. But since I hardly face opponents with S10 weapons, I have the ability to relax them a little, being able to distance them from the lord without too great a consequence. The only worry then would be power weapons and the sort (but I ensure that key units NEVER see close combat if they're not built for it).
Now, onto how immortals can be used (at least from my relatively small but consistent experiences).
Most of the time, I just bolster the phalanx with immortals either in the centre or leading the warriors. The 24" Assault 2 blaster are nothing to be laughed at when making advances with the phalanx. So the phalanx now has mobile firepower as it moves.
Flying circus (I'll let someone else explain since I'm in a hurry). The flying circus can be a particularly ruthless tactic if the die are in your favour. Hitting rear armour or decimating vulnerable units behind enemy lines is invaluable. But I don't like the risk associated with the tactic, particularly after you've forked out 300-400+ pts for the lord and squad. Nevertheless, it can provide quick mobility on the battlefield.
When it comes to objectives, immortals are just darn stubborn and are very difficult to shift (short of a demo cannon if there isn't a ResOrb nearby). I just leave the warriors near the objective (in cover wherever possible) and the have the immortals to defend the more indefensible of objectives with the necron warrior squad. If there is no cover? I make the cover, with the immortals, using them to obscure the warriors in the final turns as to prevent them from falling below 50%. Only if immortals could hold objectives in standard matches, then they'd be absolutely perfect!
'I'll be back' soon enough to share more (if I roll a 4+ some point over the week)
Last edited by the_pariah7; February 9th, 2010 at 07:06.
Necrons W68-D13-L10 (3rd edition codex)
Necrons W3-D1-L1 (latest codex)
Skaven still being assembled
5 Immortals (140 pts)
The look on your opponents face when your Flying Circus teleports from the middle of your Phalanx in the middle of his gunline, unleashes 10 Gauss shots into his line and sends his low Ld troops running off the table edge while screaming in fear... (priceless)
Disclaimer: Never actually used that myself, but I'm sure this is the wet dream of anyone who deploys the Flying Circus
I know some may hate me for this, but with everyone pledging their love for immortals, let me instead talk about their drawbacks...
Immortals are the better Warriors. This may seem fun and just, but it also proves a point: Immortals do nothing for you that Warriors are unable to accomplish.
I'm not saying that Warriors are as good as Immortals, but they number more (which is important for phase out) and can claim objectives (which is essential to winning games). Immortals can't do the latter. They are only tougher and put out more firepower, but it is firepower that is very similar to those of the Warriors and the Warriors make up for their lack in toughness compared to the Immortals by numbers. The point is that Immortals fail to add a new quality to a Necron army.
A Necron army does not necessarily require more anti-infantry firepower. It needs anti-tank firepower. It does not necessarily require more short-ranged firepower. It needs long-range guns. So if you have enough troops and want to add some more firepower to your army, you should go definitely go Destroyers, not Immortals. They give you new qualities: mobility, range, weapon strength. And while they are -admittedly- almost double the points apiece, they do have the same resilience and additionally feature the advantages mentioned before.
Another important thing to note about Immortals is the travesty created by their high toughness. You may think this enables them to withstand punishment far more easily, but this is not quite true. What are the guns that kill Necrons effectively? High-strength shots (preferably AP3/2/1). These will wound the Immortals just as quickly.
I do see that against shooting the Immortals yet are still noticeably more resilient than Warriors. But who attempts to kill Necrons by shooting them these days? Close combat is the way to go. And any dedicated close combat unit usually features high-strength attacks, be it power fists on (Chaos) Space Marines or one of the many monstrous creatures, and so on. These weapons will inflict the very same casualties upon Immortals as they do upon Warriors. They will force the same morale checks. And they will cause the same sweeping advance with the same initiative levels.
Yes, Immortals are a cool unit. But gamewise not as much so as fluffwise, and you should invest in Warriors and Destroyers before you spend points on Immortals, who only give your army more of what it already has, instead of granting you new qualities that really enhance your force and significantly raise your chance of victory.
To emphasize on this once more before I conclude: I am not saying that Immortals can't be worth their points, though, and I am not saying that it is a bad idea to have them in your list. Using them in a flying circus adds to their mobility and offsets the problem of still being rather short-ranged, thus making them much more easily justifiable. So if you use them, then at least use them with the Veil of Darkness.
I must honestly disagree on several of your points Red Archer.
Immortals are a fantastic anti-tank unit, and their infantry suppression is far more effective than that of warriors. Granted price difference, a unit of 10 immortals pumps out double the number of shots at 24" at +1S and AP over warriors. This makes a huge difference, as most infantry units reach effective mass fire range at 12" and their 24" volleys are half as effective as their 24" shots in most instances.
Also, against tanks, an immortal volley will average 3 glancing hits, and can start making shots from a safer distance. Also that S5 is nasty against side armor of some transports, and rear armor of just about everything. I tore up two chimera and a heavy sentinel with my immortals last game I played, as well as a Platoon squad, and I'm pretty sure a Leman Russ bit it to them, but that may have been warriors.
Aside from this, their durability surpasses any other unit in the army when in large numbers, and for their price, 5 or 6 can take unholy amounts of punishment (like an entire IG shooting phase).
I have learned that using a maxed out squad with a veil lord is a silly idea. 5-8 immortals are easier to deepstrike and have plenty of killing power for surgical strikes.
(I knew this would happen...)
I don't want to get too deeply into an argument over this, yet let me restate some of my reasoning. Your post is only comparing Immortals to Warriors, but that isn't my point at all. Sure Immortals are the better Warriors, with the exception of not being scoring.
You are required to purchase Warriors to a certain extent in order to have a legal army and a competitive one in objective missions. Once we're done with that we can argue about how to spend the rest of your points. You want additional firepower? Okay. Now you can buy Immortals, if you like. But you could also buy Destroyers. They have the same AP, higher weapon strength, greater range, and greater mobility. You can take seven Immortals with 14 S5 24" shots moving 6" a turn, or four Destroyers with 12 S6 36" shots moving 12" a turn. Think about what is the greater benefit in shooting power...
The Immortals kill 2.07 MEQ on average, the Destroyers 2.22 MEQ on average.
While the Immortals kill 7.78 GEQ on average and the Destroyers only 6.67 GEQ on average, though GEQ are easily taken care of by Warriors and at least Destroyers inflict instant death on T3 models (like swarms, Eldar or IG commanders, etc).
Immortals will inflict 1.56 penetrating hits on AV10 in average, the Destroyers do 2.67 on average.
While Immortals can not penetrate AV11 at all, the Destroyers can do so very well.
And please keep in mind that the Destroyers are able to accomplish all that from safely without the range of most small arms as to avoid return fire. And they are much more mobile.
Now if you combine the Immortals with the Veil of Darkness I do recognize them as a very good and points-efficient unit. And yet they need the Lord and the Veil of Darkness to be effective, which adds to their points cost effectively, when comparing them to Destroyers. The Destroyers are able to redeploy on their own (and entirely without risk, unlike veiling Immortals), leaving the Lord to protect the Warriors or use his Veil of Darkness with another unit (against standard infantry and against anything but AV10 a squad of Warriors is just as effective, and that one you have to have in your list anyway). Now combined with the fact that Destroyers are by far the better transport hunters and killers of anything that can't be easily taken care of with Warriors, I return to the conclusion of my original post.
Immortals are the better Warriors. But since you can't replace your Warriors with Immortals, you'll have to stick with the worse Warriors. Any points in excess of those you need for purchasing your troops should now be invested in something that really benefits your army and adds a new quality to it. So when ascertaining whether Immortals are a good choice, they should not be compared to Warriors (because they can't replace those), but for example to Destroyers. Who are, in my opinion, still one of the very best units in the entire game of Warhammer 40.000 and it is thus not surprising that they outperform the Immortals in important areas.
And yet again I emphasize -as I had already done in my original post- that if combined with a Veil of Darkness, a unit of Immortals can be a very viable choice. If you do not use the flying circus, though, you are by far better off with Destroyers. So far my opinion, and as of yet I have not heard any facts that run the risk of changing it...
If I may, i'll add my own thoughts.
Now whilst destroyers are undoubtedly better than immortals, that is because immortals are not destroyers and should not be used for the same job. Immortals also boost your WBB more and are seen as less of a "target" so can pack a nice surprise.
Immortals are primarily there to bolster your phalanx, to add that hard-hitting and just generally hard core to it. They are one of the most effective bodyguards for a lord as there tougness five stops small arms fire from picking the unit apart.
Placed in the middle of a phalanx, they are much less vulnerable to assualt (and demolisher cannons). Your opponent has to push through your squad(s) of warriors to get to them and still be able to charge (the only thing that can do this is open-topped vechiles and the landraider). There effectiveness is not reduced like warriors is by being in the middle(/back) as there longer range (when moving) allows them to keep firing even when you phalanx moves.
The other tactic, which again is more similar to warriors than destroyers, is to place them in the front of your phalanx. This grants all your warriors a 4+cover save. There are very little (possible none) weapons that ignore cover, WBB and 3+ armor, meaning that your whole phalanx is harder to kill. However they are much more vulnerable to assualt and as previous mentioned, this is one of there biggest flaws.
Add either of these to warriors (troops, WBB raise), a monolith (or 2) (in case a squad really needs that reroll for WBB or to escape from charge range), and destroyers (long-range support) and they are the finishing touches to any list.
In summary, yes a lord with res orb helps more, a monolith is invincible, warriors do a similar job for cheaper and destroyers outshoot them, but if you have these in your lists and need just a bit more invincibilty (mainly because of low WB then immortals are the way to go. Not the most competitive (ie. lord, warriors, monolith, destroyers, nothing else tactic) but many competitive lists have them and give the whole army benefits as a result.
No i like red archers comment but if im going to pay for any elite points throw them into immortals. They have WBB unlike pariahs and flayed ones, they can pop tanks easily, add lots of shots to your army, You can move and shoot them, only strength 10 can instant kill them, thier weapon owns against all armies with 4+ saves on thier troops, whats not to love about this elite, i usally would rather have 4 troop squads then add a squad of 10 of these, necrons need lots of troops thats red archers point these models are expensive in price and in points, i found a nice article on LO telling me how to make 10 out of a standard troop box. Also, assualt shouldnt be an issue you can move and shoot so just keep running from assualt, and finally there not too expensive not to add a higher phase out number unlike pariahs. And in shooting they own most basic troop squads easy.
Space marines 6 dread army Wins: 4 ties:2 Loses:7 Modified Standard nilla marines Wins:37 Ties:8 Loses 42 Daemonhunters Wins:3 Ties:0 Loses:1 Full assualt concept army wins: 6 Ties: none Loses: 2
*A 4+ has been rolled, IBB succeeded, booting up systems, entering primary command...*
Back! Wow, a lot of chatter has taken place since I've last been on. While destroyers are much more preferable to immortals, its not really a fair comparison as one is a jetbike (equivalent) and one is a footsoldier (albeit, a tough one).
In my view, immortals are a great support unit for the phalanx (and for use within the phalanx, not really on the wings) and are better used in this way (unless flying circus-ing). They bolster the phalanx with superior ranged firepower (on the move) where warriors are unable to provide the same firepower on the move (given that the range is halved).
I've pretty much covered what I intend to say in my previous comment (scroll up) and can only reiterate what I said then. I'll post another comment after some new material has been discussed.
Given that destroyers are much more preferable to immortals, we should embrace what immortals can do and their better qualities instead of intensely pointing out what other units can do better.
Last edited by the_pariah7; February 10th, 2010 at 06:13.
Necrons W68-D13-L10 (3rd edition codex)
Necrons W3-D1-L1 (latest codex)
Skaven still being assembled