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I've been looking around the Eldar forum, and have seen that some of our units have never really been taken into consideration. Is it just Eldar, or do other armies also have units which are never really worth taking? If so, can you give me some examples?
Thanks if you can help.
Fear is of the unknown...
A bunch of armies have things that are just not worth taking, like A.T. said, the =][= are full of them. Most of them are things that look fine on paper, but fail on the board.
40k: Silver Angels of Our Martyred Lady 7/2/3 - Daemons of the Great Squiggle! 3/1/0
Fantasy: Windhost of Athel'Loren 2/0/0 - Daemons of Another Great Squiggle! 0/0/0
Warmahordes: Legion of Everblight (Absylonia)
I'll try and do a comprehensive list.
Orks: Tankbustas and Flash Gitz. Awful units.
Marines: If it's got a jump pack it ain't really gonna work all that well.
Chaos: Unfortunately a good half of the book is woeful. Noise Marines, Spawn, Sorceror Lords and Raptors. It's no co-incidence that you see a lot of lash/oblit lists.
Daemons: Screamers, Beasts of Nurgle, Daemon Princes.
Space Wolves: Not a lot here, but blood claws aren't really worth it. Skyclaws are quite bad too.
Dark Angels: No bad units just a severely outdated book.
Black Templars: Same here really. Techmarines now that I think of it are never taken. They are universally bad in marine books.
Necrons: Pariahs, Heavy Destroyers, Tomb Spyders.
T'au: Vespids, Skyrays and anything with a pulse carbine.
Dark Eldar: Scourges, Hellions, Warp Beasts (I remember the first time I saw them I was in total shock I had never heard of the unit), Mandrakes.
Eldar: Artillery, Phoenix Lords, the rest is debatable.
Blood Angels: Just heavily outdated. Not for long
Nids: Carnifexes, Pyrovores.
Hope that helps.
Fortes Fortuna Adiuvat
I think the older the codex gets the more units will become too countered to play. Either the rules change or other armies become less affected. I remember when Assault Marines where the bomb. I have 20 in my collection and that is why I play my Eldar now For Eldar though I think that some stuff was never that good. Swooping Hawks for example have great models and sweet fluff but are also basicly Guardsmen with jetpacks and special granades. They are also the same cost (almost) as Warp Spiders and more expensive then most other aspects!! wtf? If they cost what they should (roughly 5 or 6 pts less per model) then I would definitely take them.
All you can do is sit tight and hope that the next edition or some other codex (BA!) will provide you with a reason to field your models again.
A 6 point reduction makes them the equal of a tyranid gargoyle (which really is a guardsman with a jump pack); Pricing them any lower than Skyclaws is wishful thinking IMO.
Good points A.T. but you have to admit that there is little to justify their points in an army which isn't lacking for fast units or ones which deepstrike. I might try using them a few times to get an idea for how they work out. The problem is that I'd have to drop 2 Fire Prisms or the equivalent to fit in 10. Has anyone used Hawks and found them to be a worthwhile investment. I know they are good for last turn contesting and can stay off the board entirely dropping pie-plates all game. I guess for the skyleak role you'd really only need 5 of them but thats still about 150pts.
I do think swooping hawks are a few points too many - mainly due to the lower costs of 5th ed assault troops (look back at other 3rd and 4th ed books). There comes a point though where you stop dropping the cost of a unit and start raising the cost of things that are beating it out for value, as was (over) done with the carnifex in the new nids book.
To expand with dark eldar,
Most of our wargear no longer applies in this (or the previous) edition of the game, or is very situational now, or worthless now.
Scourges are double priced warriors that get to have heavy weapons for twice the cost to give to a warrior in smaller squads.
Mandrakes are a great idea, but they can't take wargear so have very little effect (unless charging 5 tau firewarriors)
Warp beasts are amazing number of attacks for the points, and were worth it with portals, but now they can't make it to their targets (as portals arn't used currently)
Talos is a beast, again same thing with portals.. and it's very unpredictable (almost orky)
Hellions are an overcosted warrior that moves 12 with rapid fire weapons and fewer special weapons than available to warriors
That leaves Lords, incubi, wyches, warriors, ravagers, and (debatable) jetbikes.
The problem your looking at is that many older codexes aren't designed for the ruleset making non troop units unviable where they used to be the bread and butter.
Eldar is a perfect example while we don't have the biel tann option for aspect warriors as troops. If all aspects counted as troops they would be considerably more valuable.
Swooping hawks are way overpriced if you ask me, and are probably not viable as a 15-18 point cost, possibly with the removal of their grenade dropping ability or making it once per game. If they are FA then probably the lower end of that range, if a troop probably nearer 18pnts.
The problem we face as eldar is that only our MOST specialised choices are still competitive, and those that don't fit that bill are just left far behind.
I think they really need a proper, not this half arsed attempt in the current codex, craftworld codex with a variety of options more like SM (ie special characters defining your list type, so you can play many different ways).
The reason SM are so popular is because anyone can play them almost any way they wish too (obviously not always the most competitive, but it can work, which isn't true of alot of armies.)
Most armies have units that aren't used as they aren't amazing, but often thats only because the other choices are slightly better, or cooler. Some armies however have a very large amount of units that simply never get taken because they don't work, are incorrectly point costed, or are just badly designed ruleswise.
The internet hype about having the 'best' list also doesn't help these days as alot of people go online and jsut download a list that they think will win. One of the many reasons I hate mathhammer, it can tell you what statistically in perfect conditions would be the best but if your actually playing a game it means nothing unless you as a general are capable of making those perfect conditions for yourself.
I wouldn't say eldar aren't viable, although I know some people are feeling we are having all our goodies given away to each new codex for a fraction of the price to pretty much every many and his tyranid, which seems to be the current way that codexes are being released, with special abilities of all types being simple upgrades instead of the mainstay of an army. This being said I think considering how our entire army is meant to be specialised, we should be seeing EVERY unit as a viable choice (not necesarily all in the same list tho of course) and being something to be feared and definately used.