Banshee Mask "first round of combat" - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
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    Banshee Mask "first round of combat"

    Hey there, Eldar players. Quick question about rules, but it's codex-specific so I figured here would be OK.

    I've just played a 1.5kpts game with a friend using my Tyranids with him as Eldar. He had a unit of Howling Banshees with the Banshee Mask wargear. My friend told me that they (or is it some weird war shout thing?) count as initiative 10 in the "first round of combat".

    Here is the situation:

    His Howling Banshees charged my unengaged Hive Guard. Now, I believe in the codex it says that the Banshee Mask "negates the benefits to initiative" or something. Does this extent to and overwrite the "Assaulting Through Cover" (count as initiative 1) rule in the rule book? Because the wording is interesting as you, the Eldar player, don't get a "benefit to initiative", and neither does the opposition player as their initiative stays the same. So would that point be moot and just normal rules of Assaulting Through Cover still stand?

    Secondly, it does say something like "in the first round of combat". During my player turn (I had second turn), after what I considered to be the first round of combat, my Gargoyles also joined combat. This is where things get interesting: I argued that that this was now the "second round of combat", because the combat had been going on for one turn, and therefore it was now "round two of that combat", therefore the Banshees didn't get their Mask (or howl, can't remember) ability of being initiative 10. His point was that because the Gargoyles were attacking, it did in fact make it "the first round of combat" again, and caused his initiative to be 10 again.

    Any help here would be greatly appreciated! Thanks guys!

    Last edited by Danilo; May 17th, 2010 at 23:16. Reason: damn typos

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  3. #2
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    In the first round of combat a Howling banshee has an initiative of 10, and negate initiative bonuses from cover or defensive grenades, but only the first turn that a banshee engages do they get that bonus. if another unit charges them while still engaged it is the second(or more) round for the banshees.

    also lash whips reduce a banshees initiative to 1 regardless of the mask apparently

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    I agree with Prisoner on everything except where he says that if a unit charges in a second round of combat the effect is negated. The exact wording says that "In the first round of an assault a model wearing a banshee mask has I10..." ect. This leads me to believe that any assaulting force is affected by this rule.
    This is just how I have played however, I am not a tournament player and in that arena they may have censored this rule to help smooth over arguments and settle a point of contention.
    Do I know you?!?!?!?!?

  5. #4
    LO Zealot cKerensky's Avatar
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    No...just..no..

    I10 against the new attackers? Sure, but he can't target them. It's a rule that lots of people skim over (and seem to argue over).

    You can not target a new assaulting unit unless you've been in combat with them for one round already. It's in the rulebook under multi-assault. So, yes, your buddy is right in that he'd get I10 against them. Unfortunately, he can't attack them anyway, so he attacks at initiative against what he CAN target.

    Since I don't have my codex on me, I'm playing the Devils Advocate. In all reality, the Banshees have been in combat for a turn already, regardless of whoever joins it after the first turn, does not change the fact they've been there.

    Either of those two explanations should work. If he doesn't agree to the second (and more reasonable of it), point him to all the assault rules pertaining to my first description. You cannot target a unit that isn't in base contact with you at the beginning of the assault phase, unless it's the initial engagement. There was a big long argument and it was agreed (there are always those who refuse to believe), that this was the intention of the wording.

    This means that you could tarpit with unit A, then on your next turn, charge in with "Killy, but low Initiative and T". They can't be touched.
    Last edited by cKerensky; May 18th, 2010 at 07:15.

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    There is some contention with the War Shout since it states that ANY unit they are fighting can be targetted, but considering a second units first round of assault as the first round when they are already stuck in combat with another unit is very murky.
    I would tend to say no on this count for the following reason, if you get assaulted by a single enemy unit, and counterattack you get your Init 10, negate all bonuses etc, if the opponent then stacks on other nearby units you still gain that Init 10 etc (in the same turn). The next turn however you are back to normal regardless of additional attackers being added to the fray. In this way your unit benefits for all enemies in that first round.
    In the same way War Shout can be used to lower the WS of any enemy unit to 1 in that first round.

    Also I'm not sure what your talking about cKerensky with your last comment, if you engage an opponent with a unit and it survives the first round of combat, then yes in their next combat round they must continue to attack that unit (if it was the only one they where engaged with at the start of the combat), however the second attacking unit would still be effected by Defenders React and moving into base contact where possible when they assault, meaning that the Banshees with their high initiative may still hit first and do some major damage. The attackers are far from untouchable. It depends on grenades, Initiative, etc.

    I haven't played against the new nids though, and don't know how some of their rules may effect Eldar rules.

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    Senior Member Archon Charybdis's Avatar
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    cKerensky, that's a common misconception. Units must attack enemies they were in contact with at the start of combat. Combat doesn't begin until after charge moves and defenders react moves have been made. "Combat" very specifically refers to the section of the assault phase where blows are exchanged, not the assault phase in it's entirety. I don't have time to elaborate much atm, but there's been a number of threads on this in the rules section.

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    There's also one very long thread that the general consensus was that this was indeed the ruling. Most of the more recent smaller threads pertaining to this were started by a couple of people who disagreed with the reached consensus

    I'll break my 40k rulebook out again when I get home and quote the passages. Until then, go ahead and quote the passages that support that point. If someone can prove me wrong, I'd be more than happy to concede, unfortunately, the rules in the book, as far as my definition of the words go, agree with me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cKerensky View Post
    Until then, go ahead and quote the passages that support that point. If someone can prove me wrong, I'd be more than happy to concede, unfortunately, the rules in the book, as far as my definition of the words go, agree with me.
    Directly from the rulebook, page 41: "Models that were engaged with more than one enemy unit at the beginning of the combat (before any model attacked) may split their attacks freely between those units. Declare how they are splitting their attacks immediately before rolling to hit."

    Some peope argue that "beginning of the combat" means the beginning of the assault phase, others believe combat means the time when dice begin to roll. I belong to the latter half, and believe this is just poor wording, as there is really very little evidence for either enterpritation being right or wrong. I do however believe that the second sentence clears up the intent of the first sentance, and that you choose the target right before you start rolling to hit. The only reference to combat I can find is the chapter on "fighting a close combat", which is after any models have made their assault moves, further strengthening my arguments. Altough, without any true definition of what is meant by "combat" it is impossible to resolve this issue.

    Edit: Just noticed the faq/errata changes the word "combat" to "round of combat" in the above quoted section. Still, that doesn't change a thing since that is also undefined.

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    LO Zealot cKerensky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inian View Post
    Directly from the rulebook, page 41: "Models that were engaged with more than one enemy unit at the beginning of the combat (before any model attacked) may split their attacks freely between those units. Declare how they are splitting their attacks immediately before rolling to hit."

    Some peope argue that "beginning of the combat" means the beginning of the assault phase, others believe combat means the time when dice begin to roll. I belong to the latter half, and believe this is just poor wording, as there is really very little evidence for either enterpritation being right or wrong. I do however believe that the second sentence clears up the intent of the first sentance, and that you choose the target right before you start rolling to hit. The only reference to combat I can find is the chapter on "fighting a close combat", which is after any models have made their assault moves, further strengthening my arguments. Altough, without any true definition of what is meant by "combat" it is impossible to resolve this issue.

    Edit: Just noticed the faq/errata changes the word "combat" to "round of combat" in the above quoted section. Still, that doesn't change a thing since that is also undefined.

    "Models that were engaged with just one of the enemy units at the beginning of combat (before any model attacked) must attack that unit"

    Why would they make that distinction? That rule right there tells us exactly what we can do when a unit is already involved in combat, another unit charges them, and combat happens.

  11. #10
    jboweruk
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    It's become "Round of Combat" in the FAQ now. So it's clear now that you can attack whoever you are in base contact with. Including the new unit. But I always understood the mask only works in the very first round of combat. So if you are charged while still in combat, tough. It doesn't really matter anyway, I'm sure the girls have an Initiative of 6 so most often stil go first.
    Last edited by jboweruk; May 18th, 2010 at 21:57.

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