Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
Right then, I had a game two days ago against a Tau player. I was using my Wolves list. He uses two units of two Piranhas and he uses them in the usual way to block units. Now he did something I have met before and which usually does not bother me that much but in this game it made a real game tipping difference.
Basically he deployed in a corner with his Piranhas and Kroot out front and his XV88 unit on a flank (most advantageous sight lane) with some Gun Drones out in front as a screen. Now I deployed my SW Cav so they were going to go straight at his Broadsides and I noticed the Drone unit and then noticed his Drone-less Piranhas. So I asked him what the Drones were and he told me he had disembarked his Drones before deployment as per the transport rules, mmmmm I thought but let it go (stupid decision that cost me the game).
Now here was the problem, my Cav were going to have to go through two units of Drones to get to the XV88's and all the while the XV88's are shooting.
I lost my LR Crusader 2nd turn to the XV88's because my Cav could not get to them quick enough because the Drones held due to some lousy rolling on my part.
Now the point here was the Piranhas were a good 12" away from the Drones (protecting the XV8's). If the Drones had been made to disembark in the movement phase of turn one they would have been within 2" of the Piranhas and nowhere near the XV88's. Because he disembarked the Drones before deployment he was free to place them where he wanted, which gave him an unfair advantage.
After the game I discussed the Drone issue with him and I had the Tau codex to hand. The rules for Gun Drones on vehicles states that they may disembark during any 'movement phase' in the same way as infantry disembark from a transport. It also states that Drones are treated as passengers for the purposes of vehicle damage.
"Treated as" and "in the same way as" does not mean the Drones are passengers.
Deployment is not classed as a 'movement phase' so given the fact that Drones are not passengers, they are only 'treated as' and 'disembark in the same way as' and deployment is not a movement phase I think he made an illegal move that benefited him and was to my detriment (to the tune of a Landraider destroyed and a unit of WG Termies with Logan walking over the field for two turns).
My opponent had learned this little trick from Steleks blog and I actually debated this with Stelek a while ago but this is the first time I have seen what it can do for a player and I do not agree with it.
You can indeed deploy a transport and passengers separately but Piranhas are not transports, Drones are NOT passengers and the rules even state that you can only disembark Drones in the movement phase, the Drones cannot re-embark and no other model can embark, why? Because the Piranha is not a transport.
My opponent tried to argue (this was a friendly discussion by the way) but eventually gave up because I asked him to show me where it says Piranhas are transports and where it says Drones are passengers (treated as when damaged, is not the same as being).
He has agreed that he will not disembark before deployment in future and drop the Drones in the first movement phase.
Have any of you had this dodgy tactic done to you and did you accept it. I have decided I am going to dispute it any time anyone tries it against me. I do not do use this tactic with my Piranhas (I do not use any tactics that give an advantage if they are unclear or dubiously legal). What do you think and do any of you Tau players use this tactic and if you do, how do you justify it.
By the way I am not after a troll, flame or insult fest here. I want to discuss this properly, so lets understand we are simply discussing a dodgy tactic.
Last edited by Rikimaru; May 28th, 2010 at 20:29.
Well you got me excited but then i read the end and was disappointed lol.
I would agree with you but it does make an interesting idea as you could deploy the legal way and then as the P flys forward the drones jump back into position as they would have disembarked before the P moved.
Tau: 6K - W17-D3-L4, Orks: 4K - W9-D0-L2, SM: 7K - W7-D3-L4,CSM: 4K W5-D1-L1, Nids: 3.2K W3-D0-L2
Apoc games (mixture of armies used): W5-D0-L1
i have never seen anyone try to do this since like you say the pirhana is not a transport and the drones are not classified as "passengers".
I haven't experienced this one either, Riki, but I totally agree with your summation of the rules. There are a small number of things like this throughout various armies which appear to be legal - until you start to pick them apart and *really* check out the rules + codex.
One thing I noted in your detail about how the situation was handled: you discussed briefly something your weren't sure about, then played on even though you were pretty certain there was a rules mistake being committed. It's nice to see things like that happening, as too many times we see and hear about games which have ground to a halt while people argue over the placement of a comma in a sentence. Kudos therefore to both of you.
"Tau Commandment #226: Participants who use Velocity Trackers in the Tau Clay Pigeon Tournament will be disqualified"
In this game though it was different and really gave a significant advantage, a four strong Drone squadron is surprisingly tough in CC and the two separate units (two squadrons of Piranhas meant two Drone squads) kept my Cav unit at bay.
Eigle/Skars: In friendly games or club games I am pretty laid back about stuff like this, the opponent was not outright, blatantly 'cheating' in my opinion and I know him fairly well. He told me exactly what the Drones were and hid nothing.
OK I lost the game but it was not the end of the world and it was a fun game. If it had been a tournie then I would have brought a judge over and explained the situation and gone with the decision of the judge.
Believe me I don't tolerate repeated cheating or blatant rules lawyering and I am pretty good at spotting these types of players or dealing with them when I get caught playing one of them but I never get angry or into heated arguments, if the opponent is impossible I simply end the game politely.
I know I have a rep for really sticking to my guns on rules discussions etc on forums but that is on forums because they are the place to sort out problems with rules etc, playing a game is not the place to have massive discussions or arguments. I chatted with the fella after the game (over a pint) and he actually appreciated the chat and we actually ended up re-writing his list and I answered a few questions he had about squadron rules.
All in all a good night.
Having played Stelek myself, I know for a fact some of his rules opinions are slightly off what they should be. When we played he tried to argue that gun drones on a vehicle can not fire even though the burst cannon could (DF and piranha) even though in the codex it specifically states they can fire so long as the main gun can. He definitely has his own views on rules hich tend to favor exploiting them and he tends to use convoluted reasoning to support them.
I agree with your take on this particular ruling. Although in reality unless you could have gotten there in turn one Ido not see how it would have made a difference. The gun drones can disembark, move, run and then jump for a total of 15-20' to cover the broadsides in his first turn.
Good to see it was resolved in a friendly manner.
- Never underestimate the power of human stupidity.
All my games finish in a friendly manner unless I am playing silly Americans
The drones may be treated as passengers, but they are bought as wargear. And the rules clearly state that you can only disembark them in the movement phase.
Your opponent was definitely wrong on this one.
Still, like the others, I must admit that it was big of you to let it pass and just play the game from then. Rarely will even this issue swing the entire outcome of a game. If it does, it just proves how close the game was to begin with.
ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014
I think the line you showed, "during any movement phase" is the clincher here. It clearly states that he can't be disembarked during deployment. Interesting situation, though.