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I was pretty disappointed to see the thread launched by Cossack about this topic shut down yesterday. I didn't think it was flaming or trolling as any of you who read the ork forums regularly will know that Cossack is a valuable and sometimes aggressively flamboyant contributor. The choice of wording on the topic may be considered unfortunate but I think the discussion point is a valid one.
I think that a discussion by ORK PLAYERS is much needed on this topic. If yer blud don't run green then you need to say something constructive here or don't say it at all!
The reason is that most of my opponents over rate what D3 Str7 AP4 shots can do. If I don't get turn 1 they are the prime target. They are so expensive and so easy to kill / break that they are inevitably gone by my first turn and the game usually gets lost at that point so to combat this I need to spam them to make them effective citing the excuse of 'acceptable losses' AND using up valuable slots contested by Nobs, Nob bikers, kommandos etc
The ork codex has a problem with Elite slots and I still don't get why an obvious support unit with obvious heavy weapons is an elite choice and not a heavy one.
to clarify my feelings on them:
They are expensive
They are in the wrong FOC slot
They have low LD and often break
They are rubbish at CC
They tend to try and glance things to death
If they had the following options...
To take a nob with boss pole, PK etc
To be a Hvy slot choice
To improve their armour eg options to buy Eavy armour / cybork
... then they would be as good as everyone praises them to be but they don't so they are not!
I disagree with some of your point as those would be the result of poor deployment / usage and not of the unit.
1. they don't need to be better in cc, their a ranged unit and should be used for that, ypu have other units that cann deal with cc and if you allowed your lootas to be assaulted well then you did something wrong with them.
2. there is no need to give them improved armour, stick them in a some area terrain for that nice 4+ coversave whch will also work against most that would have ignored your "improved armour save" anyway, besides you want them to be even more expensieve.
3. if yours only glance then your targeting the wrong targets with them, go for transports and other vehicles in the AV10-11 class, mine work wonders there.
As for the topic getting closed I'd say good, it was nothing more than trolling, no constructieve points were brought by the OP and then he starting flaiming as well as insulting people, having then also an avatar of a raised middlefinger, well your then asking for trouble.
Whilst I stand by my decision to close the thread, I do see that there were some valid points and the start of a discussion within it. I am happy that you took the initiative to open this thread, and though I will be keeping an eye on it, I am sure it will continue on in a well manered and civil way.
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Cossack isn't a flaming troll, he's just...Cossack. ^_^
Lootas are indeed expensive by Ork standards, but a unit of 9 gets an average of 6 strength 7 hits with 48in range, a range normally unheard of for the Orks. To compare, in order for the Imperial Guard to get 6 hits, they'd need 6 autocannons teams, which would cost about the same as the unit of Lootas. The difference is that the Imperial Guard army is fully loaded with long range shooting, and the Orks have almost none. So if autocannons are good for IG, then lootas have to be great for the Orks.
Also, who says they're bad in close combat? A unit of 9 gets 27 attacks on the charge. Against guardsmen, that's 18 hits and 12 wounds. For a heavy weapons team, that many attacks in close combat is normally unheard of.
Finally, they're in the wrong force org slot? Great! I usually have at least 1-2 elite slots to spare, but almost never have any heavy slots left over.
In short, lootas rule. Hold them back in cover, near your own board edge, and they will serve you well.
"Any job worth doing, is worth doing with a powerklaw."
From my experience using the Lootas I have come to some conclutions.
* They are to expensive (orks whise)
* They never seem to hit when its needed (my dices fault?)
* They die fast
For me that usually face Space Marines and Eldar they have done nothing, not one damn thing. When I play them I take aim at the first Rhino / Wave Serpent I see and fire. I usualy get loads of 5s and 6s when I'm going to see how many attacks I have so I usualy get around 20 shots out from my 9 man Loota unit. but when I roll to hit I only have 4-5 left and then I need to break the armour of the rhino aswell. So I have around 1-2 pens. But why wont it expload?!
well thats just what I think, discuss more and give me reasons to use them again
Cossack was out of control and was looking for flame war. thread got closed as it should've.
now to the lootas:
I agree with Dreachon.
and to add:
its far fetched but; because lootas got "bad repped"on the internet, most opponents I've played actually underestimated them and ignored them or didn't shove enough in their face to give them trouble. this could be pointed as "bad opponent" and sure partially it is, but it's easie to ignore units that are classed as "useless" or not "not threatening" by everyone/thing/whatever in your surrounding (like the Tau ethereal..).
I use them in the back of my line to cover my advancing boyz and take stuff out that could/will intercept them and/or stuff that could hurt them bad. and they haven't disappointed me so far. I do have to admit that I have only played friendly games and not on tournaments .
Consider that any turn your opponent spends taking out your Lootas, is a turn he's not spending taking out your Boyz, Trucks or Kans. Their survivability isn't "low" per se, but on par with all the other Ork units. Firstly, they should always be deployed in heavy cover. If that isn't present, I like to field a Grot 'screen' around them to give them a cover save. Rather helpfully, the Lootas are tall enough to shoot over the Grots without blocking LOS. You also have the KFF if you're on the defensive.
Big units help with morale checks and their CC capabilities are on par with regular Ork Boyz, but even so, they're a fire support unit anyway.
I'm also very confused as to why you think they should be a Heavy choice. Heavy Support is a great slot for Orks filled with great units like Battlewagons, Kans and stuff I generally almost always max out on. Conversely, if Lootas weren't available I don't think I would ever use all 3 Elites slots.
Lastly, they fulfill a valuable role that no other unit in the Ork Codex is able to fill reliably. Long range anti-transport/med infantry. If you're still running around trying to smash Rhinos with Power Klaws then you need to seriously get with the program, because this is 5th Edition we're playing here.
I use units of 10 lootas in cover... I don't really find that to be alot of points and they get well enough shots to remove a transport a turn, which is exactly what I want them to do... I want my enemy walking so I can outmanouver with the other elements in my list, or battlewagon my burnas by them to drop templates of doom....
If you're able to stop support manouverability, you have a MUCH easier time dealing with the heavy mech (not with your lootas mind you)... my priority one in a game is to get a manouver edge... which allows me to dictate distance and which engagements I'd like to have... lootas are part of this plan and a very effective one at that... their range is simply fantastic for orks... adds flexibility and a ranged option at quite an impressive distance...
and I use a unit of 10 because I want to make sure what they shoot at is dead. I normally average some average rolls (imagine that?) so I count on getting averages, which should take out a transport...
however if they were a heavy slot I doubt I'd ever take them....
I'm just curious what players who do not like Lootas use to take out vehicles at range. Kans? Buggies? Kopters?
I'm not an Ork expert but I have played a few games using my Orks as....well Orks and Lootas filled a vital role. Fast vehicles will eat Orks up (I've played enough games with Guard to know) but Lootas shut them down. They have weaknesses, every unit does. I think the advantage over some of the vehicles is they cannot be Shaken to shut down shooting and don't rely on a Mek living, but do rely on cover.
I wish more people would say what armies they play against and be honest about the skill level in their area, that factors greatly into ones opinion. If there isn't a lot of Mech in your area, Lootas don't look good. If people you play against make lots of mistakes and have bad lists, Lootas feel unnecessary. I'm not saying that everyone who says "Lootas are bad" play in an area full of dimwits but it would be nice to know the background that forms Internet opinions. :]
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I'm personally not a loota user and I've done well without them, for the most part. I have a whole swarm of rokkit buggies that post up where I need them and tear up whatever vehicles are scary. I also use warbikers- their dakka/pk combo can take out low armor well. I also run 3 rokkits with each 30-boy mob, and often use tankbustas, which I think are underrated in this forum, but thats a whole different argument. I also put rokkits on trukks. Any transported group of nobz, meganobz, or even boyz can take out static tanks like chimeras.
Lootas seem alright but I've personally shied away because of all the "loota frenzy" and folks claiming that they're "necessary" for orks. I'd rather pick units I like that are still functional. This is one of the reasons that I use slugga boyz too. Not dissing on loota users (which are probably most of you), just my own style.
I will be buying a pack and assembling 4 of them to mount on my orkified Imperial Defense Laser to count as auto-cannons with Anti-Aircraft mounts