veil of tears and transports - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    Member camarodragon's Avatar
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    veil of tears and transports

    If a shadowseer is embarked on a falcon, does it confer the veil of tears rule to it?

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    no. Veil of tears says it affects the shadowseer and the unit she is with, i.e. the harliequin unit she is part of.

    the transport is a separate unit, so does not benefit from veil.

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    Senior Member Archon Charybdis's Avatar
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    No, the power specifically applies to the Shadowseer and her unit. The harlies may be embarked in the Falcon, but that's not the same as being joined together as one unit.

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    Member mike4253's Avatar
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    Judging by your sig and the lack of eldar within have you recently been screwed over by someone claiming this ?
    you cannot shoot my harliquins because beneath their mask is an idea and ideas are bulletproof

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    Member camarodragon's Avatar
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    No , actully I play eldar and BA as well, just havn't had time to update my sig. The question had just poped to mind as a question of interest. Hadnt seen it done, havnt done it, but was wondering if anybody has.

    hmmmm, OK tell me this. If an Autarch or a farseer is in the unit does it convey the Veil of tears to the them.? If so, why not to the falcon?
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    Senior Member Archon Charybdis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by camarodragon View Post
    hmmmm, OK tell me this. If an Autarch or a farseer is in the unit does it convey the Veil of tears to the them.? If so, why not to the falcon?
    Yes, it would apply to an attached Farseer or Autarch because the it's a psychic power that the Shadowseer generates that affects the entire squad, much in the same way an Apothecary or Pain Boy grant FNP to their unit. It applies to the IC's because they can become part of the squad. A transport (even a dedicated one, which the Falcon isn't anyway) is at all times still an entirely separate unit, and not "joinend" to the squad in any way.

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    Member camarodragon's Avatar
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    However, the Shadowseer states that " any unit wishing to target the shadowseer or the unit she is with must roll... " At no time is it mentioned joined.... "with" is very ambigous and can mean many things. Joined and embarked I believe are both one of them.

    The apothecary is a poor example and is not similar to this as he grants an additional die roll to models that suffer an unsaved wound. As you know, vehicles don't suffer wounds.

    Just as the farseer is with (joined in the squad) the harlies, the Harlies are with (embarked in) the falcon. Is it not??

    Cheers...
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    Senior Member Archon Charybdis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by camarodragon View Post
    However, the Shadowseer states that " any unit wishing to target the shadowseer or the unit she is with must roll... " At no time is it mentioned joined.... "with" is very ambigous and can mean many things. Joined and embarked I believe are both one of them.
    That's a pretty flimsy argument though. You're creating a technical definition for the word "with" that doesn't exist in the core rulebook. I'll be honest, there's nothing in the rules to disprove your claim that "with" also implies "embarked on." Similarly, there's nothing in the rules that disproves my claim that "with" means "in the same army as," and that every unit I field should benefit from VoT as long as the Shadowseer is alive.

    There are many abilities and psychic powers that could potentially apply to a transport unit. When they want this to happen however, they'll make a specific note of it, rather than use a common preposition to vaguely imply it.

    The apothecary is a poor example and is not similar to this as he grants an additional die roll to models that suffer an unsaved wound. As you know, vehicles don't suffer wounds.
    Vehicles suffering wounds or not is absolutely irrelevant to the point. The Apothecary/Pain Boy are very much relevant to the issue of a particular model granting special rules to their unit or units in proximity.

    Just as the farseer is with (joined in the squad) the harlies, the Harlies are with (embarked in) the falcon. Is it not??
    Never once have I seen or heard of this interpretation being accepted, and clearly everybody else who has commented on this thread doesn't see it that way either. You can't assume a fairly broad technical definition for a common preposition in the English language where one isn't provided.

  10. #9
    Member camarodragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archon Charybdis View Post
    There are many abilities and psychic powers that could potentially apply to a transport unit. When they want this to happen however, they'll make a specific note of it, rather than use a common preposition to vaguely imply it.

    Not so..

    Guide and fortune, both psychic powers state "nominate one eldar unit with a model within 6" of the farseer....." not that it has too be a troop or nonvehical model, only that its a unit (the same as VOT does) and we both know that the farseer can target vehicals to give it the psychic effect such as the re-roll to hit or the re-roll to save. (unless I've been playing it wrong for the last 8 months... eekkkk)

    Im not conviced as of yet as to a solid reason why not, when all the evidence so far that i've provided points to its possible.

    As to RAI.. why not.. she's one expensive girl....

    Got to go fishing in less thatn 5 hours and need some sleep.
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    sigh, this arguement is getting painfully silly. A natural extension of your definition of 'with' would be anyone stood vaguely near them on the table. So a single shadowseer should confer Veil to your entire army. Seriously.. *rolls eyes*

    So what you believe the definition of 'with' to be is irrelevant, it's very clear that GW intends Veil to apply only to the seer and the unit of harlequins she's with. If you need some more evidence of that beyond the codex, read the FAQ. There are several references to Veil, all of which cite 'unit of harlequins' because that's the onyl this Veil can apply to. There's no mention of vehicles because trying to claim it applies to a trasnport carrying a unit of harlequins is so ridiculous they didnt think anyone would seriously try to pose that arguement.

    If the ommision of any reference anywhere to Veil applying to anything except a unit of harlequins isn't sufficient for you, and you're persisting with your view that Veil is clearly an army wide ability as long as they're stood near the Shadowseer, the firstly I hope the buises heal quickly and secondly the burden of proof lies with you to show, using the rules documents (not your own imagination) that 'with' refers to embarked units and their transports. Even if you manage to find something obscure which supports your (in my opinion) ridiculous view, you're not actually going to change the way the world plays harlequin rules and not a single tournament organiser will use your version of the rule.. so ultimately you're wasting not only your own time, but everyone elses as well.

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