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I was lookin over a new army list today and got to thinking. When are hard boys really worth the points? The extra coversave, when used, gives an ork 1/3 better chance of surviving . Points wise, its much more than 1/3 the points of a whole extra ork boy.
The only time it would be beneficial is if u already have a full unit and want extra staying power or when space is concerned (like when in a truck or table space in big games). Yet I see units of 20 with the hard boy upgrade not in a bwagon all the time.
I'm still a noob at playing orks since I mostly paint but I'm not seeing the point if u can just take extra boys to gain from their attacks instead. Is it a money issue?
Can some of you ork vets enlighten me? Thanks in advance
Combat resolution is determined by how many unsaved wounds each squad dealt. Regular boyz lose combat much more often than 'ard boyz, because they're always taking buckets of wounds with no proper save to speak of.
Sometimes staying power is useful. Say, guarding a coverless objective. They do better against light dakka fire, rank-and-file cc troops, and some other situations. Sometimes space on the board is an issue, and they take up less space / are able to maneuver better / provide fewer targets for blasts than extra boyz. As far as trukk or wagon boyz go, their extra survivability can prove crucial because of their lower numbers than 30-strong sloggers. They present cool modeling opportunities for all your armor bits, and could be fluffier for rich badmoons or painted blue as looting deffskulls. Their reliability can throw off an opponent used to fighting regular boyz and finding himself in a tougher fight.
Thanks for the replies. Besides the combat resolution aspect, all the cases are pretty specific. In the combat resolution screnario you would have to hope that by buying extra orks you could get extra wounds but maybe distance from the attacking models can be a concern durring the assault.
ard boyz as an upgrade for foot sloggers is a massive waste of points. There is a lot of AP4 or better weapons, which easily ignore the 4+ army save. On the ground, you're better served by a line of grot's providing a 4+ cover save to the army behind them, as well as absorbing an enemies first charge (nids anyone?).
However, when the ard boyz are assaulting from a wagon, or truck, it's a totally different story. In an assault, they are going to get that armor save from everything but a power weapon. That makes a MASSIVE difference vs their normal "luck" save of rolling a 6. That is going from a 16% chance of making a save, to a 50% chance. Adds up fast, and generally means they'll win the combat. Surviving after winning the CC? Unlikely, but a great distraction during the opponents next shooting phase.
Oyz!!! Wat kinda self respectin Ork worries about their enemies shootier weapons?
Staying power, Survivability, and Annoying
I just recently played a game against blood angels and came up on top, surprisingly my 'ard boyz managed to kick butt and live through some scary situations. Perhaps it was due to my opponents poor rolls, but of course neither of us were not subject to Tzeentch, but I agree and disagree with greggles.
I truly believe it is based on who you are facing. For instance against Marines (chaos or loyalist) it is favorable to drown their elite force in numbers. Yet as greggles mention there are a lot of AP weapons that deny our beloved greenskins their 1/6 of a chance to live. Example; Templates, as every one knows from experience or just simply comparing stats, are beautiful weapons against horde armies where models are densely packed and having difficulty finding room. I believe all races have a template weapon to speak of, and if placed correctly can deal a massive number of wounds. Blast and flame weapons shred us apart before we can even get to their lines (though I would say if your in flame range then their line is about to meet u!), so I agree again that a cover save is useful at keeping our boys alive than armor.
Still I disagree that is a waste of points for foot sloggers, I have always run my 'ard boyz as foot sloggers, and just make sure to sprint in that first turn, waaagh! in turn 2 and reach their lines to tear them apart. I even use the same tactic of screening other Ork mobs with them, why? Because they have a 4+ armor save, a fifty/fifty chase of surviving, so if shot at I just laugh quietly at my opponent, wasting firepower on tip of the spear while shaft is more numerous. In combat these boyz chances of living through the battle are great, while their compatriots swarm around them or even join in. if the unit is targeted more often than the other mobs thats wonderful, means more orks to chop things up! If they are not the target of 'eavy fire, then great a more survivable unit in cc and more loot for the pickinz. Its also a delight to watch your opponents eyes as they worry about a single mob of orks with 4+ saves then the 3 mobs of just regular boyz of equal size.
I agree completely though with running them in a wagon or truck, this definitely would increase their life span, but there are other units more deserving of a wagon or trukk... I would rather put Nobz and burna boyz in the wagons or trukks and do either drive-by torch style, or power weapon/klaw charge!
"SONS OF HELGHAN!"
Hehe! It all depends on your particular games I guess. In my group, all new players, we tend to play on longer tables. Last table length was 5 feet. My primary opponents are SM, Tau, Eldar, and Necrons. As you can imagine, this puts them at a massive advantage, and myself at a disadvantage.
The last time I used foot slogger ard boyz, they were mowed down like normal boyz, but at almost 2x the cost. (AP4 weapons up the wazzoo).
I then swapped to grotz, and their survivability went through the roof, as they got their 4+ cover save the entire way down.
So though I will agree it is not a complete waste of points on foot sloggers, you definitely have to know what type of board you're playing on, and who you are facing! (We are new players, playing on big tables, with only annihilation games at this point!)
Example of Table. (This game was SM and Nid vs Tau and Ork...there is a lack of SM on the right side of the table because the killa kan's just grotzooka'd the heck outta a few squads).
You'll also note, I got tired of the long table ranged fire, so I plopped down a group of 10 loota's, and utterly obliterated 3 whole squads with them. (As well as taking out the tyrant guard).
They weren't the MVP though...MVP went to the deffkoppa's (3 total separate units), which took out the SM dreadnought, and the las cannon on the razorback on turn 1, after turboboosting on their scout move!
Last edited by greggles; September 20th, 2010 at 12:25.
i have to take up the point made about the 'annoyance' factor, my single unit of shoota boyz has had the 'ard boyz' upgrade for as long as i can remember and they do cause many funny moments as people don't take them seriously until they shoot them or get into close combat then when it comes down to the armour saves (probably due to my jammy roling) not many die or in some cases none at all. the reaction to this usually is what!... despite the fact that i make it clear that the are ard boyz at the start.
they are also worth it as it means that some will survive to give the enemy a pasting one way or the other (BS 2 shootas! ahem thats quite a few marines you lost there mate...)
Having just come out of a gruelling tournament with my Ard boyz, I can say that they are great vs other orks. put them in combat vs other orks and you win. put them in combat with marines, you probably win. against terminators you lose, they've got too many power weapons.
the general idea, put them in combat! I run them with ghazzy in a battlewagon, they're good, but I often think he'd be just as effective with regular boyz instead.