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  1. #1
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    List Cracking.....

    This is the list I want/need to crack.

    HQ
    Ghazghkull/Big mek

    TROOPS
    2x19 Boyz- Choppa & Slugga. 2 Nobz- Bosspole/slugga/PK

    ELITES
    1x10 Burna Boyz

    1x7-9 Nob Squad- 1 Pain boy. Lots of PK/Big Choppas

    HEAVY
    3 Battlewagons- Deff rolla/RPJ/Big shoota.


    I have played against this list at 1500 and 1750. I've lost both times, just on the fact that all he does is tank shock me with the deff rollas and assault with the nob squad.


    All the models listed below are all I have available. But proxying is ok with our group.


    1x Tyrant w/lashwhip & bone sword. The bottom half (?) is magnetized.
    3x Hive guard
    30x Genestealers w/Scything talons & rending claws (No Broodlord's)
    30ish Termagants
    1x Carnifex magnetized
    9x Warriors w/4 Deathspitters/devours, 3 Venom cannon, all scything talons.
    2 Primes w/lashwhip & bonesword.
    And a couple of spore mines/ripper swarms.

    ANY HELP WILL BE GREATLY APPRECIATED!!!!!


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  3. #2
    I am a free man! number6's Avatar
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    786 (x8)

    As bad as your Ork opponent's army list is, your list is worse. You have a grab bag "assaulty" list with, for all intents and purposes, no shooting whatsoever. Three lonely hive guard certainly don't count in army lists of this size.

    You need to toss "stealer shock" and other "assaulty" Tyranid list concepts into the rubbish. They were terrible before, they're still terrible now. You will not be able to beat this opponent until you seriously wrap your head around the shooting options in the Tyranid codex and use them.

    Your reports on tank shocking is exactly why mech trumps infantry, I don't care whether your army is Tyranids or Space Marines or Imperial Guard. This is how 40K operates. Mech >> Foot.

    You stop vehicles by shooting them dead. That's it.

    For example, harpies with twin-linked heavy venom cannons are particularly useful against battlewagons. BWs already have to expose themselves to side armour shots just to do their job. Harpies can easily puncture AV 12 and with their speed won't have a difficult time getting shots at BW rear AV of 10. They and Tyrannofexes are the 'nids best units for stopping vehicles dead quickly and as far away from your army as it is possible. I would suggest starting there for changing your list up. Taking a pair of harpies and a tyrannofex will cost you 605 pts. Add a 4th hive guard -- and always take them in your lists, too, so you have 2x 2 hive guard in your Elites (saving you an open Elite slot to use as you like ... ymgarls, perhaps?) and that 805 pts will form a solid anti-armour shooting core that will serve you well. You could always do with more (e.g., a 2nd tyrannofex, carnifexes with devourers and HVC), but for 1500 pts, that isn't too bad. A start, at least.

    You should note that all these units -- hive guard, harpies, tyrannofexes -- also come with significant anti-infantry powers as well. They're not one-dimensional beasts.

    Also, if you continue to use genestealers, take Broodlords, one for each stealer unit you take. They're that good and useful, and turn stealers from wasted cannon fodder into actually deadly assault units.
    Last edited by number6; October 5th, 2010 at 04:06.
    ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
    RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014

  4. #3
    Senior Member TamCoan's Avatar
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    156 (x3)

    To reiterate, you need shooting units/abilities that can stop the tanks before they reach your lines. A "mostly" assault list will be completely wiped by turn 3 in many cases. One of the truely powerful things with nids in general is that most of our units that can be tooled up for shooting is also rock-solid in CC.

    Personally I haven't taken a single genestealer with the new codex and haven't missed them one bit.

    As you rework your list, first address how you plan on stopping the mech rush. (Which is what's happening to you.) Hive guard, zoanthropes, harpies, tyranofex, flyrant, etc... are all very good options to stop armor.

  5. #4
    jy2
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    797 (x8)

    Despite the lack of shooting, I'm of the philosophy that you make the best out of what you've got. What you need are screening units to take the initial hit from the ork charge and then you counter-charge him.

    Proxy your carnifex as a tervigon. He is one of the most important characters here as he is the one who will be creating you sacrificial "roadblock" units - the termagant screen.

    I would also proxy the tyrant as the Swarmlord. Hey, why not? He's using Ghazzy at 1500, isn't he? And there's nothing more dangerous than a large block of genestealers with prefered enemy or furious charge (from the Swarmlord) and feel no pain (from the tervigon).


    I'm not sure exactly what your points are, but I'll assume 1500pts:

    Swarmlord - XXX
    Tyranid Prime - Bonesword + Lashwhips, Toxin Sacs - 105

    3x Hive Guards - 150

    Tervigon - Catalyst, Toxin Sacs - 185
    12x Termagants - 60
    12x Termagants - 60
    15x Genestealers - 210
    15x Genestealers - 210
    6x Tyranid Warriors - Rending Claws, Toxin Sacs - 240

    Total - 1500

    Deploy your hive guards away from the your main units. This way he has to either split his battlwagons to go after them or just ignore them. Either ways, it's going to set them up for some side shots on his battlewagons.

    Take out his burna boy's battlewagon first. They are deadly in there. If they are not embarked, then take out the nobs' battlewagon. Remember, if his battlewagons move more than 6", the unit inside cannot fire at all (including the burna boys). You don't want his burna battlewagon to get within shooting range of you. 10 templates will wipe out any of your infantry units (with the exception of the warriors with FNP).

    Let him tank shock and chew through your gaunts. If he assaults them, then he has fallen into your trap. As long as you are not eating flamer templates, your genestealers, tyranid warriors and the Swarmlord should chew through his units in assault. You're attacking first and you hit real hard. Pile the genes and Swarmlord on Ghazzy and the nobs and put the warriors on the ork boyz. You don't want to put the warriors on the nobs as they will get PK'd to death.
    Record: Win - Loss - Draw: Hive Fleet Pandora (New) 32-6-6 Space Wolf 7th Co. 52-11-6
    Blood Angels 12-4-2 Daemonhunters 20-8-3
    Imperial Guards 12-5-2 Daemons 8-3-2

  6. #5
    I am a free man! number6's Avatar
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    786 (x8)

    The problem is that the ork player has no reason whatsoever to disembark. Ever. All he has to do is kill the hive guard and keep moving more than 6" every turn and he's good to go. Either shoot the hive guard dead -- even Orks can do that if that's all they have to shoot at -- or roll over 'em with the deffrollas. It's not like hive guard can puncture AV 14 if that's what's being aimed at them. And like I said, there's no reason it can't be pretty much all the time because there are no other shooting options. And even splitting up the hive guard won't help much because HG is only 24" in range. You split the HG up, the orks just stack a flank and continue on their merry way smashing everything they like, safe inside their battlewagons.

    You can't "absorb" a tank shock with infantry. The infantry either die (deffrolla) or move out of the way. Always tank shock more than 6", and nothing can hit you except on 6s, either.

    There is simply no way to reliably stop this army without better shooting. You might get lucky in some games and roll those 6s and then more 6s with your genestealers, but shy of pure luck, the Ork army is simply WAY better than the Tyranids army in this matchup. And without any incentive to get out of their vehicles, the game is in the bag.

    Invest in shooters. You have no other viable option.
    ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
    RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014

  7. #6
    jy2
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    797 (x8)

    Ah, but the hive guards in this case is just a decoy. The main AT is rending from the genestealers and warriors. Shooting at battlewagon AV14 front armor with KFF protection is just plain ineffective. However, 45 rending attacks against battlewagon AV10 rear armor will just hurt it, even if you're hitting on 6's.

    Most importantly, orks are not marines. They can't rely on their shooting like marines can. If they want to do any damage at all, they must disembark from their transports to assault. That's how they are designed and playing any differently would be folly....like gearing IG or Tau towards assault. And if they just tankshock you, then they are in your assault range. Taking out a battlewagon in assault is no different from taking out a rhino. The only thing you really need to worry about is to not let him pile those 10 templates on top of your guys from the burnas in a battlewagon.

    It can be done. I did it recently against an ork army with 5 battlewagons using my purely assault daemons (battle report found here (2500pts Competitive Daemons versus Battlewagon Orks))

    But it would make it somewhat easier if he did have more shooting.
    Last edited by jy2; October 6th, 2010 at 17:08.
    Record: Win - Loss - Draw: Hive Fleet Pandora (New) 32-6-6 Space Wolf 7th Co. 52-11-6
    Blood Angels 12-4-2 Daemonhunters 20-8-3
    Imperial Guards 12-5-2 Daemons 8-3-2

  8. #7
    I am a free man! number6's Avatar
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    786 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by jy2
    However, 45 rending attacks against battlewagon AV10 rear armor will just hurt it, even if you're hitting on 6's.
    And all of your rending clawed infantry will be assaulting one battlewagon. Assuming that all of the rending clawed infantry take no casualties at all either before or after being tank shocked with deffrollas.

    So let's assume the best of all possible worlds. No rending clawed infantry die at all. A tank shock comes in and the ork player isn't smart enough to arrange to kill any rending-clawed models on the first go. Then let's assume you rend the battlewagon to death. It's the orks' turn now, and they still have two battlewagons left and one unit of stranded infantry. Hello deffrolla death followed by shooty death from the disembarked unit! Game over.

    The ork player is a total idiot and the Tyranids have the best of all possible luck, yet it still results in the death of the Tyranids army.
    Quote Originally Posted by jy2
    Most importantly, orks are not marines. They can't rely on their shooting like marines can. If they want to do any damage at all, they must disembark from their transports to assault. That's how they are designed and playing any differently would be folly
    You're wrong about that. It's folly to not think outside the box and realize that the Ork army in question is all but guaranteed to destroy the Tyranids in this matchup because the Tyranids army has zero ability to actually harm the Ork army. All they have to do is resist the urge to disembark and enjoy deffrolling everything dead until the tyranids get lucky, maybe destroy a battlewagon or two, and then clean up the survivors with yet more tank shocking from the surviving wagon(s) followed by Ork shooting, which is plenty good enough to dismantle this tyranids army after it's been mauled by the battlewagons over multiple game turns. The 'nid army will be so depleted so quickly that the Orks can totally afford assaults when and if it suits them, on their own terms, not the Tyranids'.

    This situation is what should be happening in most mech v poor-to-nonexistant shooting Tyranids army builds. All those army builds that keep popping up where people take nothing but a couple of hive guard units even when they're up against mechanized armies, be they Orks or Imperials or whatever. It really is so very very easy for a mech army to take apart an army that can't reliably and quickly destroy its vehicles from range. The fact that it doesn't appear to happen more often remains a great mystery to me. I had to learn to fight these kinds of armies and tactics a long time ago!
    Last edited by number6; October 6th, 2010 at 17:42.
    ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
    RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014

  9. #8
    jy2
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    797 (x8)

    You forget one very nasty tactic. He tank shocks me. I surround him with genestealers and even the warriors and gaunts. Then I assault him. If I wreck the BW, then all his guys inside are dead as they cannot come out. If I explode it, then BBQ for all as both nids and orks burn to their death. However, if he cannot fit all his models within the footprint of the exploded vehicle and 1" away from my guys, then excess models are removed, meaning more dead orks. No matter what, tyranids need to surround the tank that they are about to assault.

    Tervigon should catalyze either the genestealers or tyranid warriors who are most likely going to get assaulted or shot to death to make them resilient (usually the ones in front). Any unit behind them will get cover anyways from ork shootas/sluggas. Swarmlord can give the charging stealers/warriors furious charge to make them more likely to kill the battlewagon.

    How much gribblies can deff'rollas kill? Only D6 at most. Gribblies won't break as they should be within synapse range and thus fearless if played correctly. Then next turn his battlewagons get swamped and the tactica of surrounding the vehicle is applied. And if they disembark and assault the genestealers or warriors, so what? With prefered enemy from the Swarmlord, a lot of ork boys will die before they even get the chance to strike.

    The best tactic is for the boys to stay inside the wagons and shoot for a couple of turns before finally assaulting. However, if the boys inside the wagons shoot, that means the wagons cannot move more than 6". That'll make it much easier for the nids to hit those wagons, but the tyranids will then need to get aggressive and go after them.
    Record: Win - Loss - Draw: Hive Fleet Pandora (New) 32-6-6 Space Wolf 7th Co. 52-11-6
    Blood Angels 12-4-2 Daemonhunters 20-8-3
    Imperial Guards 12-5-2 Daemons 8-3-2

  10. #9
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    Remember deffrolla damage is ap - and as such MCs can save it. Also you can FNP the damage. A MC heavy list with 2-3 Trygon (can crunch even 12"move wagons due to rerolls) fex's, Tervigon and hivegaurd shooting the flanks should win out......

  11. #10
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    The only squad that stays in the battlewagon are the burnas. The nobz and boyz fly across the board was fast as they can to assault me (Turn 3 ish). I understand what number6 is saying about the nids over-looked shooting. And I really think that if I put 2-3 Harpy's and/or a flyrant it would not only crack the armour put make him think twice about how hes moving those battlewagons.

    Jy2 I have done 45 rending claw attacks on his battlewagons before and it does work nicely. But in my noobish ways I used my other stealer squad to also rend the battlewagon to death instead of keeping them in cover and assaulting next turn. But I do like the idea of using the hive guard as bait. Because he always try's to kill them first in the assault or roll over them.


    So what do you all think about this 1750 list:

    HQ
    Tervigon 185
    Adrenal glands
    Catalyst
    CLuster Spines

    TROOPS
    2x10 Gants

    2x4 Warriors 320
    2x Pair of boneswords
    2x scything talons
    4x deathspitters

    2x15 Hormagants 240
    Toxin Sacs

    ELITES
    2x3 Hive Guard

    FAST ATTACK
    2x Harpy's 340
    2x HVC
    2x Cluster Spines

    HEAVY
    Tyrannofex 265
    Rupture Cannon

    The Gants cover the tervigon and the tyrannofex that's with it. Hopefully the tervigon spawns more than 1 round of gants!!! The Harpy's just fly around and snipe the battlewagons and maybe be flashy enough that the orks go after one. Hormagants will cover the Hive guard and warriors.

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