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  1. #1
    Archite of Caerbannog KwiKwag's Avatar
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    Fun With Warp Beasts

    Played a game yesterday and tried out a Warp Beast pack consisting of:

    2 Beastmasters (one had a venom blade just for kicks)
    5 Khymera's (4+ inv)
    2 Razorflock beasts

    Only 119 points!

    I was using a Web Way Portal but I found that my very aggressive opponent was threatening my objective so I elected to not run them through the portal and just run from my board edge (nice, thank you GW). The unit they needed to tackle was Vulken He'Stan and his groupies (about 6 marines, one with a fist). I also combo charged Vulken with a Talos just to make it interesting. Things I really liked:

    * Initiative 6 rocks! Of course the beasts got to go first (before Vulken as well)

    * Obviously an awesome WWP unit but their range just coming off my board edge is also impressive and having the Khymera's 4+ inv. save is as good as a cover save.

    * The amount of attacks wasn't over bearing nor was is underwhelming - I'd say just right for charging a normal Tactical squad of 10 and leaving a couple to spill over into the marines turn (perfect!).

    * The razorflock attacks were directed at Vulken and I was able to generate 3 rending and 1 normal attack - now if these went against the marines instead the attacks alone from the beasts would have wiped out the 6 marines easily. I also understand getting 3 rending attacks out of 12 attempts was fantastic but getting 1 or 2 on average is acceptable, killing one marine pays off the cost of one beast. Unfortunately, Vulken deflected all the attacks so I learned my lesson there.

    * The Beastmasters were underwhelming but the Khymera's 20 attacks really embraced the whole "Death-by-Armor-Save" killing 2 or 3 marines - nothing new there from last edition however the addition of the other beasts are going to be necessary to make them worth their weight. What I like about the Khymeras most is their 4+ inv.

    When I was all done with the initiative 6 attacks it was Vulken's turn and he decided the Razor Flock had to die and directed his attacks at them - what we both noticed immediately after he declared his attacks was that he could not attack the Razorflock directly to insta-kill them - he had to attack the unit and I got to allocate the wounds. So of course I elected to put the strength 6 power weapon wounds on the Khymeras where the 4+ inv. saved 2 of the 3 attacks!

    When it was time for initiative 4 attacks the 2 remaining marines attempted there attacks against the beasts and there I was able to allocate the non-power, strength 4 attacks against the Razorflock since they have 10 wounds between the two thus preserving the Khymera count in the battle. The Talos, however, used its chain flails to get 5 attacks and +1 for the charge and easily munched the remaining marines including the power fist that never got to attack.

    One other item I suppose is allocating the attacks against the Beastmasters since they are the weakest link and if they happen to have a pain token I could put the attacks and them use the FnP to perserve the beast pack - as far as I know, there is no reason to keep them, is there?

    During the Salamanders turn the Beasts attacked Vulken (all by his lonesome) and was able to put 2 wounds on him despite my opponents incredible luck in not rolling "1's". Vulken then decided to direct his attacks against the Talos knowing I was just going to throw his attacks against the Khymeras. He only managed 2 wounds against the Talos and then the return attacks from the Talos finally "snipped" him in half - pain token went to the Talos (along with Vulken's head).

    Wound allocation shenanigans is a surprising bonus, use the 4+ inv. for the power and insta-kill wounds!

    What sucks:

    Beastmasters have little to no use at all.
    No plasma grenades.
    Not sure about the shooting but I think the skyboards have a shooting attack - little, but it'something. Something tells me they come with splinter pistols & ccw but I dunno.
    I am not sure the agoniser is worth getting but a power weapon might be once you get 2 tokens - nice to have something denying an armor save but I suppose it depends if you are planning to use your masters as ablative wounds for wound allocation shenanigans.

    I suppose pain token strategies is something that can be discussed in itself so I will leave that for another day.

    I hope this sheds some light on this dark horse of a fast attack choice but right now the low cost and benefits make them top choice in my books until I explore the world of reaver jetbikes. Hmmm...imagining 4 beastmasters, 10 Kymeras and 4 razorflocks for just 238 (that's 34 wounds)...naw.

    "On a hunch, I melted them down and inhaled the fumes and read the dark eldar codex again, AND FOUND A BUNCH OF NEW RULES HIDDEN BEHIND THE OTHER WORDS..." [Gardeth on modelling & interpreting the DE Codex]

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  3. #2
    Orks_n_Bugs Bugs_n_Orks's Avatar
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    I prefer to run them without any weapons for the BMs, If they could all take weapons I'd prob give them each a Venom blade but as they are now I'll keep them as meat shields. I think in 1500-2000 point games I'll be using 2 packs like that coming out of the webway, with the possible addition of a clawed fiend to eat high S wounds only to get angrier (Oh, you have a sergeant with a PF, thats funny cause he wont be killing anything but I will have more attacks next turn) . These guys def make the most of the wound allocation rules.

    The rules summary I saw has Khymerae and BMs at I6 but the Flocks and fiends are I5.

    I haven't taken a good look at the PfP wording yet to verify this, but someone said in another thread that RAW even though only models with PfP can generate pain tokens from wiping enemies, once a unit has a token the whole squad gets the benefit (and beasts with FnP and FC would be amazing).
    Last edited by Bugs_n_Orks; October 23rd, 2010 at 21:29.
    The meat things seek to destroy ourselves. They hunt us as we hunt them but they are weak and uncertain. Bring them understanding of the power of ourselves through our strength and their fear. The inferior flesh will be entirely destroyed, all fragments will be smashed. Ourselves will fight to the last, all weak flesh must be consumed

  4. #3
    Archite of Caerbannog KwiKwag's Avatar
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    Hey good catch on the Initiative for the razors! I didn't notice that.

    As for the wording on the PfP, the codex says "Beastmasters only". That is enough for me to think that the powers can't be deferred to beasts.

    If I have to go to the rulebook and spend more than one sentence explaining a rule then most of the time it ain't worth the raised eyebrow or the following arguement.

    However, if it does get FAQ'd and it goes your way then I'd be the first to sing the praises! Personally, there are a number of issues with the PfP system that I foresee needs to be addressed but we will just have to deal with those as they happen.
    "On a hunch, I melted them down and inhaled the fumes and read the dark eldar codex again, AND FOUND A BUNCH OF NEW RULES HIDDEN BEHIND THE OTHER WORDS..." [Gardeth on modelling & interpreting the DE Codex]

  5. #4
    Slave to the flesh The_Outsider's Avatar
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    Of sharing tokens with models that do not have PfP the tl;dr version is that it is the token itself that confers the bonus (FnP, FC, fearless) and not the PfP rule, though you need the PfP rule to generate your own tokens.

    So as far as I can tell by RaW mixed units can earn tokens and the cronos coudl dish out tokens to units like harlies.

    Looking at beasts i can see that razorwing flocks will be a fairly potent choice but for a model with 5 wounds T3 hurts - at least they aren't swarms. I think though the best value for points will remain the khymerae simply because they are one of the few models that get a good invulnerable save in the codex - a 4+ flatout (i.e not just in CC) is highll desirable and on a unit that can cost so very, very little and move so fast you'd be hardpressed to find a reason to not take them.

    of course while i'm just looking at the entries with the eyes of an experienced commander and not as one who has tested the new beasts it is all about theory-crafting. Though I do suspect KwiKwag your mixed approach to beast units is the way forward as such utility for general low cost is pretty damn nifty.

    I wonder if we see clawed fiends making an appearance, I feel for a general/tournament list they don't quite suit the DE way of play but there can be some very interesting combos coming out of beastmaster units when people play battle missions/planetstrike and especially cities of death.

    Hmm, cities of death with clawed fiends could be veeeeery interesting indeed.
    Last edited by The_Outsider; October 23rd, 2010 at 23:13.

  6. #5
    Orks_n_Bugs Bugs_n_Orks's Avatar
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    I took a look at the pre-release codex at my store today and the bonuses from PfP are stated to affect the entire unit, not specific models, but the way I read it if no models in the unit have PfP then the pain points have no meaning, you need at least one model with the rule to get the bonuses. This leads me to believe that either the whole unit gets the bonuses or the whole unit does not. I'm sort of leaning towards "the whole unit gets the bonuses as long as there is a Beastmaster with them" and thats a pretty good reason to keep at least one alive.
    The meat things seek to destroy ourselves. They hunt us as we hunt them but they are weak and uncertain. Bring them understanding of the power of ourselves through our strength and their fear. The inferior flesh will be entirely destroyed, all fragments will be smashed. Ourselves will fight to the last, all weak flesh must be consumed

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    Archite of Caerbannog KwiKwag's Avatar
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    Ok, the codex says the unit gets the effects - given.

    The Warp Beast entry says, "Special Rules: Beasts, Nightvision, Power from Pain (Beastmasters only)"

    What is the "Beastmasters only" statement referring to? I want to know why we get to ignore this entry and why its never mentioned by people wishing the whole unit gets it.
    "On a hunch, I melted them down and inhaled the fumes and read the dark eldar codex again, AND FOUND A BUNCH OF NEW RULES HIDDEN BEHIND THE OTHER WORDS..." [Gardeth on modelling & interpreting the DE Codex]

  8. #7
    Member Vinsklortho's Avatar
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    If you wanted to go cheap on Beastmaster units and just get a boatload of Razorwing Flocks then could you hide them behind a Raider for the 4+ cover save? I was a little unclear on the rules, but is the fact your Raider is between the Beastmaster unit and the firers enough for the 4+ cover save or does it have to partially block line of sight? If you have to at least block line of sight to the unit is that enough of a reason to build lower flying bases for the Raiders or taller Razorwing Flock models?

    I'm inexperienced with skimmers in this edition as I played a whole 2 games with my Eldar and I'm still suffering edition lag from the old skimmers don't block LoS deal.
    League Stats: Orks 4W-1L-1T, CSM 4W-2L-0T, Dark Eldar 10W-6L-4T, Tau 3W-1L-1T, Blood Angels 4W-1L-1T, Imperial Guard 2W-1L-0T
    Tourney Stats: Blood Angels 6W-0L-0T, Dark Eldar 2W-1L-0T

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    The Power from Pain will depend on the wording, and then i'd have to check the rulebook. I would say the intention is only those with the Power form Pain rule will get the upgrades.

  10. #9
    Orks_n_Bugs Bugs_n_Orks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KwiKwag View Post
    Ok, the codex says the unit gets the effects - given.

    The Warp Beast entry says, "Special Rules: Beasts, Nightvision, Power from Pain (Beastmasters only)"

    What is the "Beastmasters only" statement referring to? I want to know why we get to ignore this entry and why its never mentioned by people wishing the whole unit gets it.
    No one is ignoring it, the codex does not just say that the unit gets the effect, it specifically uses the words "the entire unit gets the bonus". I don't understand how a rule that affects the entire unit would only affect certain models from a unit.

    There are many cases in the game where a specific model has a rule, and that rule provides bonuses, and those bonuses affect the entire unit. This is one of those. The "Beastmasters only" statement means that if all the BM's die, the unit loses the PfP bonuses.
    The meat things seek to destroy ourselves. They hunt us as we hunt them but they are weak and uncertain. Bring them understanding of the power of ourselves through our strength and their fear. The inferior flesh will be entirely destroyed, all fragments will be smashed. Ourselves will fight to the last, all weak flesh must be consumed

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bugs_n_Orks View Post
    No one is ignoring it, the codex does not just say that the unit gets the effect, it specifically uses the words "the entire unit gets the bonus". I don't understand how a rule that affects the entire unit would only affect certain models from a unit.

    There are many cases in the game where a specific model has a rule, and that rule provides bonuses, and those bonuses affect the entire unit. This is one of those. The "Beastmasters only" statement means that if all the BM's die, the unit loses the PfP bonuses.
    I don't think thats the case at all with RAW. PfP is a unit ability which generates a token. The BM unit that loses its BM could no longer generate a token. The "StP" (sharing the pain) rule allows a DE unit to get to use the token. Beasts are a DE unit. there is nothing in RAW that would suggest that they wouldn't get to keep the token should the Beast Masters die. They simply couldn't generate any new tokens unless another DE unit like a haemmy joins the unit.

    What really needs to be faqed is whether the one unit in the new dex Harlies is considered a "DE unit". I suspect Harlies will be under-utilized unless they could use the StP rules. Having Lelith join a small troop w/shadow seer as a delivery unit is one of the things I have been contemplating.

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