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TAU vs NECRON - CheeseFest - Destroyer Wing - HELP!

3K views 39 replies 18 participants last post by  Rafici 
#1 ·
Hi Guys,

Just looking for some miracle help or advice.

Our local club recently got joined by a beardy necron player (far more beardy than our current necron player).

This player keeps going on about how his destroyer wing necron army are unbeatable, and iregardless of what and how many times we tell him 'it takes NO skill to play that list' he continues to push the point.

My question, is there a list out there that can squash the WING and put an end to this guys jabbering.

Ive worked a few lists myself but it all seems a HUGE gamble about who gets 1st turn and how lucky ur dice are when u do fire 1st.

HELP!
 
#3 ·
Sorry thought every1 knew what the destroyer wing was.

max destroyers

and max heavy destroyers

9 of each, thats 9 str 9 ap2 shots and 9x3 str 6 ap 4 shots, range 36+12in move. A Destroyer lord win orb, min troops and immortals.

As far as im aware this is the best necron army out there, has dom'd a load of tourneys and is in gen boring and very beardy
 
#5 ·
Your T'au and being woried about being out gunned by necrons??
Phase out must be quite low. I'd just go for that. Concentrait fire to wipe out a unit at a time. Yes he has 9 las cannons and 9 old assault cannons but they are mounted on each one.

Or of course use the old tip of just not playing the list. Soon learn to change it.

PL
 
#8 ·
Your T'au and being woried about being out gunned by necrons??
Phase out must be quite low. I'd just go for that. Concentrait fire to wipe out a unit at a time. Yes he has 9 las cannons and 9 old assault cannons but they are mounted on each one.

Or of course use the old tip of just not playing the list. Soon learn to change it.


PL
Oh believe me id rather not play him with that no skill scummy list, but if it shuts him up id gladly give it a go.

And as to being outgunned yeah quite easily and scarily, 5*3 = 15 *3 str 6 shots, thats 45 str 6, and 9 str 9, enough to decimate my stonger units by numbers alone, gauss means he can wipe out any vehicles, add to that the whole army has will be back, a necron lord with an orb which means even str 10 hits can be will be backed. toughness 5 and 3+ arm. Its quite a formidible list.
 
#10 ·
... 3 squads of 3 broadsides with Shield Gens? Love that 4+ invun :p Does Gauss count as rending against non-vehicles, or does it just auto wound on a 6 regardless of toughness?
 
#13 ·
Max out Piranhas? Or rail rifles... Vespid neutrons, too? I'm thinking do anything to deny the 3+ save. After all, then only 50% of those wounded will ACTUALLY DIE. Vespid doesn't seem like a bad idea, actually...10 shots (5 hitting) wounding on 4s and ignoring armour? Also works good to screen the rest of your army if he gets first turn ;)

Never played a list like this, so pinch of salt please! :)
 
#16 ·
Like I said, I have little experience, but if his destroyers are going to cause wounds... and you are worried about being out pointed, would a shinanigan army of Stealth Teams and massed firewarriors. Obviously they will save a lot, but you can just pump him full of rounds which will force saves... and he can waste STR9 shots on Firewarriors all day for all we care :p

Might be a terrible idea... might work... the victory would be all the sweeter though =D
 
#17 ·
Have you thought of countering it in the same way
2K points = max out on battlesuits - i mean all 15 of them
Then use kroot to assult the destroyers - even if they dont do much damage they can tie them down for a while :)
All battlesuits must have plasma guns
at double tap range this will mean 30 shots at between BS3-5 with 3+ to wound and no armour save - You will wipe out a unit a turn and with markerlights more + then MP would mean 30 shots with 2+ to wound and then they have their 3+ save + 4+ WBB - good news is you could wipe out almost 2 units of 15 destroyers with this - your kroot are their to tie down other units. I would stay clear of HS as they will die to quickly and not needed if his not fielding a mono.
Use shield drones to take those S9 hits.
I think vespids could be interesting in this but i wouldn't risk it.
 
#18 · (Edited)
Sounds like this new Necron player may have an attitude problem, but I wouldn't be too scared of his army. There is no such thing as a "cheesy" or "beardy" army list in 40K. And this is quadruply true for the poor Necrons. If this guy, regardless of attitude, is consistently winning with them, then he's got a solid handle on 40K and should at least be respected for the quality of his play. "Destroyer wing" or not, Necrons suck. To win with them these days requires considerable skill. (Or terribad opponents! :rotfl: )

If this guy is taking "max" Destroyers, then the minimum of his army is

HQ
[170 pts] Destroyer Lord, res orb (I assume res orb, it could be nothing or other stuff entirely)

Troop
[180 pts] 10 Warriors
[180 pts] 10 Warriors

Fast Attack
[250 pts] 5 Destroyers
[250 pts] 5 Destroyers
[250 pts] 5 Destroyers

Heavy Support
[195 pts] 3 Heavy Destroyers
[195 pts] 3 Heavy Destroyers
[195 pts] 3 Heavy Destroyers

Total: 1865 pts

So 135 pts for trimmings to fill out 2000 pts. But nothing that would alter how this list would function.

Firstly, that is a damn respectable amount of firepower. And it's fast, mobile, and long-ranged. Necrons may suck as an army, but you must at least acknowledge the strengths where they exist. 45 Str 6 shots and 9 Str 9 shots aren't too bad. The army's also got at least 20-40 Str 4 shots plus whatever else can be had for 135 pts. That said, most of those Str 4 shots probably won't get used because Necrons can't afford to put Warriors into offensive (i.e., dangerous and risky) positions. They will rarely get employed as anything but phase-out prevention and last-minute objective holding.

Let's compare to the 2000 pts Tau list I play.
* 10-20 Str 6 shots (plus 2 Str 6 large blasts if required)
* 20 Str 7 shots
* 2-4 Str 10 shots (depending on use of hammerhead railguns)
* 2-4 Str 8 melta shots (piranhas, depends on how many pathfinder units I use)
* 20-40 Str 4 shots (Kroot)
* lots of Str 5 (from everything else)

What I see is relative parity on the long-range shooting as far as raw numbers. However, Tau far exceed the Necron's ability to pump out AP 1/2 shooting and also have a lot more basic anti-infantry firepower than Necrons. Tau also have credible assault threats in the form of Kroot. (It's not like this Necron army can fight!) And Tau are no slouches on the mobility front, either, if not quite as fast as this particular Necron build. (However, if this person is moving more than 12" a turn he's not shooting. Win for you!)

Clearly, the Tau must be considered the better army in this matchup. You have better shooting, mobility is at least equal (though I would argue that Necrons have to play keep away in this matchup, letting Tau be an aggressor for once!), and you have stronger assaults, too. Tau also have units they can afford to throw away. Necrons do not.

No matter which way you look at it, Necrons should lose this game. Theoretically, at least. Again, if this particular player is very skilled, you will likewise have to be skilled in order to turn your inherent advantages into victory.

Harass those destroyers with your piranhas. Put all your shooting into them until you wipe entire units, thus denying WBB. Focus on one unit at a time. Don't stop shooting at that one unit until you have knocked out each and every model in it. Only then move on to the next unit. Infiltrate the Kroot to limit where they can jet to to avoid assault. Make them waste shots on your Kroot rather than your battlesuits. This is one of those rare games where you don't need to castle, and probably shouldn't. You still need to provide cover for your suits, but that's what devilfish and hammerheads are for, right?

Good luck! Don't be intimidated by this guy or his army. It's a fragile army, more fragile than yours. Stay calm and focused, and aggressive, and you should be OK.
 
#19 ·
Vangeleon, I've removed the stat-line you posted for the Destroyer, as it's protected under GW copywrite law. Just something to keep in mind for the future ;)

Generally speaking, we can get away with posting a single stat, such as the strength of a weapon, but not the entire line. GW gets all frazzled whenever this happens, and they start sending us legal threats.
 
#20 ·
and legal threats are bad
anywho, ah the destroyer list, haven't seen one in a while but this is easy, his phase out is rediculuosly low, if his army (using 6's example above) reaches 11 or less he's done. this is not hard to do, plasma, ion (for this build anyway), missiles, and any low AP weapon.
 
#21 ·
Good advice all around.

You can definitely use his army comp against him, as any extreme build will get extreme results but also produce significant weaknesses. As number6 states, a well-built Tau list (with some minor list-specific tweaking) should be very competitive against his necron build.

There are several angles you can twist on this necron list to your advantage:

His Phase Out number is low - as mentioned in an earlier post. Each Destroyer you take down will hurt. If you can focus your fire unit by unit to get rid of them you could be able to systematically shut his army down. And the next point plays very nicely into this approach...

Of WBB Rolls and Baiting and Locking - since he is maxing out on his Heavy D's, that is actually good news for you in terms of WBB dynamics. With 3 units of Heavy Destroyers, that means he has no Monoliths or more importantly, Tomb Spyders.
No monoliths means none of those annoying double-dipping WBB rolls via Matrix teleports. But no Tomb Spyders is much bigger for you, because that means if he is going to get ANY wbb rolls on ANY of his units he will always need to have another model of the same type within 6" of any wounded necron. This means your Necron player is going to have to be careful about how he moves those zippy destroyers around the board. If he gets overzealous in his movement he can end up leaving those precious Destroyers high and dry for their WBB rolling.

If you can focus overwhelming firepower to decimate a unit at a time, this can become a real headache for your opponent. His Lord with Res Orb will also be of limited help here as he is only one model with a 6" radius effect for that Orb, so he will only be able to grant WBB benefits to one small area of the board at any given time. And this is where the baiting and locking comes into play.

To really take advantage of this WBB weakness, you are going to need to drive the flow of the game by baiting his units out of proximity to each other (Piranhas/H-heads, JSJ-ing Suits, & Broadsides I'm looking at you...). Expert use of your Suits and JSJ tactics will allow you to dish out pain, but leave your opponent a limited ability to return fire (his army has GOT to land shooting wounds to win). I would ruthlessly use this tactic against him as much as possible - if you do it right, you should be germinating in him a rabidly mouth-frothing hatred of Crisis Suits before all is said and done! ;-)

While baiting him out of proximity you will need to simultaneously lock him down in combat. I know - I can hear it already. What?! Tau with an assault strategy?! Hear me out - assault is a doubly effective tactic against this Necron list, as not only will you in essence pin his highly mobile units in place, but they will not be able to shoot at you - which again entirely blows the whole dynamic of the list.
This is where I might depart from a normal Tau build to target this list specifically. I could see 3 large units of infiltrating Kroot to be of profound use in driving the flow of the game. Granted - it is not going to be easy to get your foot sloggers to grips with, in essence, jetbikes. BUT, if you have 3 large infiltrating Kroot units (each in the ~14 to max size range), that is a massive amount of real estate you can occupy on the board in deployment to drive or splinter his units into the fire lanes you want them to get them into.
Plus, if you do it right, there is a very high likelihood you will be able to box him in enough that charges will be inevitable sooner or later, and locking 5 Destroyers in H2H with 14-20 Kroot will take time to resolve and likely not be pretty for the Necrons (If you charge, let's see, you slap him with as many as 60 attacks from a full squad with a maximum of a paltry 5 Destroyer attacks back - death by armor save and unit size, baby!). Once Necron units start getting locked in combat, your opponent is faced with the uncomfortable decision to keep his proximity and compromise his offensive strategy, or strike off and continue the shooting fusillade on you - without that critical WBB support; in which case that is when those kill zones from your Suits and B'Sides become brutally effective.
The other really nice benefit about having large swirling combats on the board are that it will buy you maneuvering time for your Suits and other mobile units and significant cover save screens for the rest of your Tau. A unit of 5 Destroyers takes up a fair amount of acreage on the board due to the size of the models - it will be a challenge to not have some line of sight obscured if you get some active Kroot H2H's going on. Not to get too heady and unrealistic, but if you can get all three units of Kroot in Assault with Destroyers that is 50% of his Destroyer fire base taken out of the action!
Also, with the size of the Kroot units, and some cagey movement and deployment, you may even be able to charge more than one unit of Destroyers at a time if your opponent is not paying attention to his squads placement...

Anyhoo - Vangeleon - hope these thoughts are useful and give some food for thought in developing your strategy for the match up. Gotta go, but best of luck punching some holes in Necron chassis!
 
#22 · (Edited)
I beat destroyerwing with DA, so there's no reason that tau can't do it... Having three venerable dreadnoughts with techmarine support and prioritizing the destruction of the heavy destroyers were the two main parts of my strategy. For tau, I'd say nine deathrain crisis suits would be a start, and broadsides in cover would seal the deal.

Yes, I know he gets a 3+ save against deathrain...but that's only 1/6 better than the 4+ that he can give himself against burning eye, and with deathrain you get 2x the shots (unless you're within 12", in which case you should be using helios anyway, so burning eye is never the answer). I'll take 100% more shots that are individually 33% less likely to count any day of the week. I'd say fireknife, and it's not a bad way to go, but deathrain is cheaper for sure, and probably more efficient, allowing you to take more stuff. I really think nine deathrains, six fire warriors, nine broadsides, an 'el, a couple squads of kroot (for area denial, the destroyers won't want to get in charge range of them), and if you have any points left, and pathfinders (for denying cover saves), will table him in short order. IF you have points left after that shopping list, piranhas.
 
#23 ·
I guess no one really feels like bringing them up (after all they are pretty horrible), but rail rifles offer a good AP3 weapon, particularlly in addition with markerlights (BS 5 is much better than 3) and supposedly necrons can actually get pinned down? maybe something to consider.

The other thing is since he has no vehicles, this might seem far out, but a sky ray platform with 6 seeker missiles might be a good threat against the destoryers/heavy destroyers, since at first they'll give the perception that as long as there is a markerlight within 36", there will always be at least one str 8 AP 3 attack able to reach the destroyers wherever they are
 
#24 ·
Thinking about it, someone mentioned Ion. Three Ionheads can fire 9 low AP rounds at good range. There are no Monoliths or vehicles to worry about, so three cheap Ionheads will give him something to worry about while you crisis teams and kroot move into position. The Ion Cannons will quickly make themselves seem a large threat, where-as the XV8's are your real killers.

It might not trick this guy... but the fact you have Ion Cannons might bait him into trying to crack your Ionheads quickly, letting you setup kill zones and kroot ambushes on likely approach vectors. Just saying... 3 twin-linked rail guns are scary, 9 Ion Cannon rounds at BS4 can be worse. Either way he is getting no armor save, and you need to cause as many wounds as possible per turn of shooting. Three Ionheads have the potential of wiping a destroyer squad out in one turn.

Add multi-trackers and DP's and you can keep a 4+ cover save from range on them most of the game against those STR9 shots. And if he does fire them at the Ionheads... he didn't fire them at your XV8s.
 
#26 ·
yes but also cost over 2 x the price - i think this could be one of the few times i would consider the ion cannon - this and nids
 
#27 ·
...undoubtedly, it will cost six arms and three legs. But this isn't an all-comers list, it's a "smack that braggart cheesemonger around" list. I'm not concerned about efficiency or flexibility, I'm solely concerned about maximizing the destruction done to a specific list, and maximizing the psychological damage done to the owner of the list. Three ion cannons will probably be 5% less effective than nine twinlinked railguns at half the points (come to think of it, the only advantages of the broadsides are an 8% bump in accuracy and the ability, with the right wargear, to split the team leader's fire to a separate target. The chance to wound should be the same, and neither allows the destroyers an armor save)...but they won't demoralize the necron player anywhere near as much!
 
#30 ·
Is the res orb reflexive? if you railgun the destroyer lord who's carrying it, does he get WBB? If not...rail his sorry butt first! Actually, do that anyway...that oughta contribute nicely to the "send the punk home crying" plan!
 
#33 ·
Resurrection Orb is reflexive and Destro Lord has T6 anyway so no railgun on world will be able to ID him out. Plus if the Necron player has any sense the Lord is attached to a Squad of 5 Destroyers you have to railgun first...

Now if I did my math right the Necron player has approximately 45 'Necron' -models on board making him Phase Out at 11 so gunning purely for Phase Out means you have to put a considerable part of your firepower into killing his Warriors. Which, in turn, leaves his Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers alive for longer... and I'm sure you won't like THAT.

Thus I suggest you get a few nice and fat units of Kroot (maybe with a few hounds) and use them. Since firepower on both sides is similar you can't simply outshoot Necron army. 'Mathhammer' apporach of "pour-all-firepower-into-one unit" works... theoretically but considering that there is obstructions like scenery to mess with movement it is highly unlikely that you can just zoom your entire army from the one edge of the table to that exact point where you can put all firepower into destroying that one unit which is so nicely out of Orb/supporting similar unit range.

So, back to the Kroot. In my honest experience each and every time I've lost with my Necrons it was because at some point of the game someone got within charge range of Destroyers. Yep. Its really that simple. The more Destroyers you run the more crowded the board will be with those 60mm flying bases and 12" move or not with terrain around it is highly unlikely that such a number of Destroyers can outrun everything for 5+ turns.

With T5, 3+ save and WBB you might think that you never kill the Destros in close-combat... Well, the catch is: You don't have to. Get any unit (yes, ANY) into CC with Destroyers and they are out of the game for pretty much the rest of the game. You won't kill the Destros but neither will the Destroes with their small numbers and laughable 1 attack ever win the assault. You can literally bind 250 points worth of Destroyers for the rest of the game with a 65 point "sacrificial squad". I've seen it happen to my dear destroyers against marine Scouts, Imperial Guard squads and shot-up Eldar guardians... and I tell you, nothing is as bad as seeing your firepower wasting away, sitting in locked-out assault while your enemy goes around popping stuff up and getting those objectives.
 
#36 ·
It sounds to me like tying them up with something expendable (kroot or vespid) is the best idea until you can get anything with the firepower to take them out as it seems you said he was playing min troop you can focus more on anti-armor (but really i'm only a noob it just seems logical)

on a side note and sorry for the off topicness is there some sort of beginner thread explaining terms used eg. MEQ etc. something for someone wanting to learn more about the competitive side of the game without neccessarily competing?
 
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