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So far in my local gw I am the only one who has a built DE army. Only about 2000 points but looking to expand. Anyway, point of this is that the guy I was playing (who is a gaming buddy, we play each other regularly) was offended by how rediculous he felt the DE are. His main gripes were Lilith Hesperax getting 9 attacks most turns, a Flickerfield on Raiders and the Archon's Shadow Field. I made a lot of good saves and played to the various unit's strengths so I made them look better than their stats suggest.
Another guy who was watching the fight was crying cheese because all my wyches were in CCand therefore had an invulnerable save.
Main gripes so far against me all seem to fall under the heading of "my SPESS MAHREEN derivative are gonna punch you in the face and squish your elf face! What they all get an inv. save? Cheese!"
Admittedly I have 4 squads of 10 Wyches with Lilith so it's clear shooting me is the way to go. But that's not so easy whenthey're jumping out a webway portal, muhaha.
What have your opponents moaned about so far?
If you really want cheese, play imperial guard mech spam, with 3 vendettas, and 3 russes.
To be fair, any player unprepared to face DE (new or old) will get spanked hard as they have a playstyle and some abilities that are totally unseen anywhere else in the game.
DE have always been about maximum offense at the cost of defense and there is absolutely no way around them appearing overpowered if they get rolling - a well designed DE army getting their strike in first and rolling from there will make nearly every other army in the game look like they aren't even trying. The counter to this (and the reason why the new codex will also get mixed reactions between "omg cheese" and "omg unplayable" is when it goes wrong it properly goes wrong and you get stomped fairly quickly.
Hell in my experience marine players run off the assumption they have the best of everything and its often a rude awakening to show them that that it isn't true.
I don't predict any such cries from my grup as i've been runing DE for a number of years, so such things are expected - though when I first bought the army i was outright laughed at by the other vets, though their smiles soon disappeared when the wins kept rolling in.
(The most i've ever pissed off a marine player was using SoB to basically play the same way his army did, only better due to faith, thats a real kicker)
Last edited by The_Outsider; November 8th, 2010 at 18:29.
Dark Eldar have always been designed, from the ground up, to counter space marines. We've always had those advantages, thier complaints arent related to the new codex yet. In fact they used to have it much worse when all wyches halved the opponent's WS and reduced any off hand attacks.
When I would run into a new player who didn't know how to counter my DE I'd show him a few things after the game like, don't send your assault marines after my wyches. Bog my wyches down with scouts or basic marines or worse a dreadnaught and use your assault marines against the Grots (or whatever), and then explain why those counters work. Once you de-mystify your army for them they won't really mean it with malice when they cry cheese. Because let's face it, marine players that lose always cry cheese.
And just because you explain a few things to them doesn't mean they can adapt thier usual tactics to compensate. You'll porbably still eat them up.
Set up a game against your local Mech Tau player, give him a few weeks to read yiour codex and come up with counters to your likely units and then invite everyone to the game.
YMMV but I used to play weekly against a locally top ranked guy who knew DE inside out. I could stomp his Marines and Chaos Marines while watching TV. I could beat his undefeated Nid's list if I concentrated and didn't make any serious mistakes. If I played very smart and cheesy I could tie his Orcs but I could never beat his Mech Tau. Certain back table edge IG firing line armies also gave me troubles. Basically it's an army matchup problem which is only compounded if the Marine General is sub par.
DE win by using the correct unit matchups. If you don't know which DE unit to throw at which opposing unit you're sunk, we have no generalists or robust mediocre units. So unless you read all the codexes and study every matchup the only way you're going to know that is by playing a billion games against every army and unit type. That means if you're winning as DE it's probably because you have way more breadth of game knowledge and much more overall experience than your opponent. You know his codex and he doesn't know yours.
War Record Since Sept 2005
Old Codex 48-20-9 Dark Eldar
New Codex 1-0-0 Dark Eldar
Dark Eldar are in line with current 5th edition codices:
IG mech spam
Space Wolf grey hunters and long fangs
Blood Angels assault troops with easy access to FNP and a flying landraider
Tyranids have some good tricks too, just not bumped up to the rest of newer codices
People are going to cry cheese until they figure out how to beat it, or more likely the people crying cheese are waiting for someone else to tell them how to beat it.
Some marine players in my area talk about how easy the Raiders are to gun down with Bolters, but I'm almost positive they are hiding their insecurities.
League Stats: Orks 4W-1L-1T, CSM 4W-2L-0T, Dark Eldar 10W-6L-4T, Tau 3W-1L-1T, Blood Angels 4W-1L-1T, Imperial Guard 2W-1L-0T
Tourney Stats: Blood Angels 6W-0L-0T, Dark Eldar 2W-1L-0T
Well, I've been an old time DE player at my club - never had any other 40K army to begin with.
And yes some try to avoid me just because I play DE.
Now, with our old codex It was kind of black and white. A DE army either good or bad. There were no in betweens.
So, I guess that this is the reason why people have been complaining by DE being a cheese army. As VET-players came allong with the good stuff.
Also keep in mind that GW has always introduced Space Marines as a kind of start-to-40K-army. Easy accessable, user-friendly is contrary to DE(read one mistake and you lose army).
Over the years I've played against quite a lot of different armies.
And as Outsider had said, an unprepared opponnent will get hit hard.
Now to get on to the space marines. Space Marines have all to good stuff to make a powerful army. However the fact that GW promote this as an easy-to-know-army is one of the major reasons why space marine players cry cheese against DE players.
The thing is I've had hard times against:
-VET Space Marine players
So is DE a cheese army? I don't think so. An opponent that knows his army and knows what to do against DE will be hard to beat.
Just keep in mind the credo from the our first codex. Strike first, strike fast, strike hard.
I fail to see how Bolters are "easy" to down raiders with. Fair enough they can glance them to death from any side, but when you consider that a Raider can have a 33% chance of saving any wounds against it and not to mention hitting then glancing it, it's not that likely.
I like the new codex, it makes them playable. OMG they can have a fair chance vs mech guard unheard of. As a spacemarine player I need to have my target priorities down pact, which is wyches die to bolter fire, not chainswords, harder said then done but i ratehr you using a 4+ cover then your dodge sAve.it also really helps on what your opponent is running if he gets almost any of your units stuck in with a dreadnought that units as good as dead.
I really like the new book its cool flavorfull and most importantly its not one of the 5 space marine codexs in print not counting chaos space marines. Every unit is paper thin a strong breeze can bring them down. Still i'm gonna have to well have a few games versus said army. Still were all calling beardy cheese at every new book.
Isn't That Just Peachey