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  1. #1
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    My first DE game... Rules questions, and comments on units

    So I played my first game of warhammer in 2 years tonight. The other guy got a few rules wrong from time to time (I probably didn't pick up on most of them) but this one in particular really annoyed me. I had a raider which moved about 18ish inches and then got blown up. Should everything in it really have died with no saves, no nothing?

    In the game, I also made a lot of dumb mistakes such as moving a warrior squad between a ravager and his landraider. Should he have been allowed to make a 4+ cover save even though I had blatant LOS etc? If he can make this cover save, does one of my guys die instead?

    Next question... When do I take the invulnerable save from my Flickerfield and does this stack with anything else eg cover save or 'moving flat out' save?

    Final question: If I win combat, and he is fearless, does he take saves equal to how outnumbered he is, or how many wounds he lost the combat by? I had him down to 1 marine and had 12 wounds of beasts left but he only took 2 armour saves... This seemed wrong!

    Overall, I got owned in this game. He had a blood angels army which included (4?) marine squads, don't even know what kind. Also included a biker squad with a melta and a multi-melta, a Vindicator, 3 Rhino's (1 might have been a razorback), and a landraider.

    I had an Archon which joined a wych squad of 8 and a Haemi also joined for the FnP.

    Next up was two Beast squads. Each had 2 Beast Masters, 2 Razorwings, and 5 Khymerae.

    Finally, I had 2 Ravagers, and 1 Razorwing Fighter.

    I left one Haemi and 2 Beast squads in reserve.

    I fired so many DL's at his land raider early on, but it always managed to survive and destroyed a lot of my skimmers. He even fired a lascannon at a raider and his other lascannon at a ravager in one turn... Apparently Machine Spirit allowed this?

    He set up his entire army (which I thought was weird, coming from 4th Ed) and then I set mine up... He automatically went first. Should we have a roll off for this?

    So right at the start, I had deployed terribly, and he destroyed a Warrior squad and a Ravager in his first turn using his Landraider and his Bike squad. I spent my next turn shooting everything I had at the Landraider, but he kept claiming random cover saves (must be my 4th Ed brain screwing me over). So far, things were going terribly.

    Next turn, he moved his 'raider 12", fired two lascannons, got his marine squad out which moved, and then assaulted my warrior squad. (Is this legal?!)

    In my turn my first beast squad and the Haemi came onto the table. I deployed them together, and then split the Haemi off, leaving the pain token with the beasts. The beasts assaulted the marine squad and took the majority of them out. They took 2-3 wounds which I gave to the Razorwings (I love you!). Question: With wound allocation, can I allocate 1 wound to each razorwing, leaving each one on 4 wounds? Or do I have to have 1 razorwing on 3?

    This combat finished perfectly in his turn. I then assaulted his biker squad with 4 Khymerae, 1 BM, and 2 Razorwings. His squad had an attack biker, and 3 normal bikers. I forgot about my furious charge (2 pain tokens) and he managed to save all but 1 wound. I then took 3 wounds which were all unsaved. Question: He said that since I lose 1-3, I had a -2 modifier to leadership. Despite the fact that I was above half strength, and outnumbered him. Is this correct? Anyway, I rolled a 7 and the squad bolted off the table. Apparently they couldn't even regroup because his guys were nearby. This sucked, if I had rememberd the furious charge there would have been no problem.

    My razorwing did nothing, would have been far better off with a 3rd ravager. I was planning on firing all 4 missiles at a squad sometime, but all of his squads were mounted in transports which were sitting at the back of the board, un needed.

    Overall, I got smashed. It ended on turn 5 with him on 8 KP and me on 4KP. I never even got my wych and archon squad out of there raider (which remained behind cover all game) because I was so scared of his vehicles and they would have been unable to hurt a vehicle anyway. I think my problem was that I was too scared... I probably would have been better off taking everything from behind cover and shooting all out, rather than hiding half of my army at any one time. The only unit that ended up paying it's way was the beast squad (114 points) which wiped out a 200 point tactical squad.

    If you know the answer to my questions, or want to comment on what I should have done, please reply

    3000 points Dark Eldar
    2000 points Daemonhunters

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  3. #2
    Senior Member Librarian Zahariel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sepiroth View Post

    Final question: If I win combat, and he is fearless, does he take saves equal to how outnumbered he is, or how many wounds he lost the combat by? I had him down to 1 marine and had 12 wounds of beasts left but he only took 2 armour saves... This seemed wrong! - I think fearless means that you take extra saves equal to what you lost the combat by.


    He set up his entire army (which I thought was weird, coming from 4th Ed) and then I set mine up... He automatically went first. Should we have a roll off for this? - Roll to see who deploys first, they set up then you set up. First person deploying goes first, BUT before you start you can roll a D6 and on a 6 you 'seize the initiative' and YOU go first.

    Next turn, he moved his 'raider 12", fired two lascannons, got his marine squad out which moved, and then assaulted my warrior squad. (Is this legal?!) - you can move landraiders 12", your guys can get out within a 2" radius at the exit point, due to their assualt ramp the unit can then shoot/assault. But definitely cannot move.

    In my turn my first beast squad and the Haemi came onto the table. I deployed them together, and then split the Haemi off, leaving the pain token with the beasts. The beasts assaulted the marine squad and took the majority of them out. They took 2-3 wounds which I gave to the Razorwings (I love you!). Question: With wound allocation, can I allocate 1 wound to each razorwing, leaving each one on 4 wounds? Or do I have to have 1 razorwing on 3? - you give one wound to each model in the unit then depending on how many wounds taking you keep allocating like this till you are done. SO if you took 7 wounds on five guys each one would get 1 wound and then you allocate the remaining wounds on whichever models you want. So in effect 3 guys would take 1 save each and two guys would make two saves each.

    This combat finished perfectly in his turn. I then assaulted his biker squad with 4 Khymerae, 1 BM, and 2 Razorwings. His squad had an attack biker, and 3 normal bikers. I forgot about my furious charge (2 pain tokens) and he managed to save all but 1 wound. I then took 3 wounds which were all unsaved. Question: He said that since I lose 1-3, I had a -2 modifier to leadership. Despite the fact that I was above half strength, and outnumbered him. Is this correct? Anyway, I rolled a 7 and the squad bolted off the table. Apparently they couldn't even regroup because his guys were nearby. This sucked, if I had rememberd the furious charge there would have been no problem. - combat resolution is all by how much you lost by, so losing by 2 does incur -2 to Ld test, I think they'd have to be 6" or nearer to make you unable to rally. (Not sure on this, true for fantasy which i've been playing a lot recently)
    Hope this helps, i'm pretty positive i've got the rules right but am at work and have no bible to refer to!

    Zahariel

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    Senior Member Alex2284's Avatar
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    'l tryand answer everything best I can.

    When your Raider explodes everything inside takes a S3 wound since the vehicle is open topped. You get any save you would normally get. So for warriors a 5+ and Wyches a 6+.

    HisLand Raider would only get a cover save if your Warriors obscured 50% of the LR which would be impossible if it was your Raider firing at it. None of your men die if he did make a cover save.

    You flickerfield save is taken before your opponent rolls on the vehicle damage chart. The flickerfield save is taken if it's your best save. Going flat out gives you a better cover save but you have to pick one and only get that save.

    Fearless models take the number of saves that they lost combat by. E.G. you kill 7 marines, he kills 2 warriors so he takes 5 armour saves.

    Power of the Machine Spirit let's him fire a single weapon more than normally allowed. This can be a different target.

    Before setting up you roll off for who deploys first. Whoever deploys first gets first turn unless you seize the initiaitve.

    The Land Raiders front ramp is an assault ramp that allows units inside to assault the same turn they get out.

    If models who take wounds are all the same model a single models has to be removed before another onestarts taking more wounds.

    If you lose combat you always take a leadership test minus the number of wounds you lost by. Being over half strength and outnumbering don't matter. A squad normally cant regroup unless there are no enemies within six inches.

    Sorry for rubbish format of replies. im at work so the site doesnt workso well.

  5. #4
    Slave to the flesh The_Outsider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sepiroth View Post
    So I played my first game of warhammer in 2 years tonight. The other guy got a few rules wrong from time to time (I probably didn't pick up on most of them) but this one in particular really annoyed me. I had a raider which moved about 18ish inches and then got blown up. Should everything in it really have died with no saves, no nothing?
    That only happens if it dies in its own movement phase, if it is killed in another phase (like being shot at) then the normal damage and disembarkation rules apply. Pages 61 and 66 in the rulebook cover this.

    In the game, I also made a lot of dumb mistakes such as moving a warrior squad between a ravager and his landraider. Should he have been allowed to make a 4+ cover save even though I had blatant LOS etc? If he can make this cover save, does one of my guys die instead?
    For vehicles if you can see more than 50% of the closest facing then no cover save is granted. Page 62 in the rulebook covers this.

    Next question... When do I take the invulnerable save from my Flickerfield and does this stack with anything else eg cover save or 'moving flat out' save?
    No, you only get 1 save unless specified otherwise - and you must use the best save available. Page 24 in the rulebook covers this.

    Final question: If I win combat, and he is fearless, does he take saves equal to how outnumbered he is, or how many wounds he lost the combat by? I had him down to 1 marine and had 12 wounds of beasts left but he only took 2 armour saves... This seemed wrong!
    It is by how many wounds he lost combat by. The No Retreat! section on page 44 in the rulebook covers this.


    I had an Archon which joined a wych squad of 8 and a Haemi also joined for the FnP.
    I would advise against putting a haemonculi in such a unit - he may increase their durability but he does not have fleet, thus slowing the unit down. Super long range assaults are a key element of any DE assault unit. You are better off hiding their transport (they will always have a transport) than risking taking a more direct route due to lack of fleet.

    That said, if you were to get the haemonculi to leave the unit the second the game starts (leaving the token with the unit) thats fine, but you can't go flatout if you do that.

    Next up was two Beast squads. Each had 2 Beast Masters, 2 Razorwings, and 5 Khymerae.
    Solid enough, they are very quick on foot but they aren't what you would all a "sledgehammer" unit, so think about your angle of approach.


    I fired so many DL's at his land raider early on, but it always managed to survive and destroyed a lot of my skimmers. He even fired a lascannon at a raider and his other lascannon at a ravager in one turn... Apparently Machine Spirit allowed this?
    Yes, page 81 in codex space marines has the rule.

    He set up his entire army (which I thought was weird, coming from 4th Ed) and then I set mine up... He automatically went first. Should we have a roll off for this?
    Assuming you rolled for who deployed first then that is correct - though you do get a chance to go first by seizing the initiative. Page 92 in the rulebook covers this.

    Next turn, he moved his 'raider 12", fired two lascannons, got his marine squad out which moved, and then assaulted my warrior squad. (Is this legal?!)
    No, the squad disembarking is fine, but firing two lascannon is not. Power of the machine spirit (codex space marines, page 81) and the vehicle shooting rules (5th edition rulebook page 58 ) will tell you why it was illegal.

    Question: With wound allocation, can I allocate 1 wound to each razorwing, leaving each one on 4 wounds? Or do I have to have 1 razorwing on 3?
    The second one, as while the unit is complex, the models within each group (i.e the beastmaster, khymerae and razorwings) are not. Pages 25 and 39 in the rulebook cover this.

    Question: He said that since I lose 1-3, I had a -2 modifier to leadership. Despite the fact that I was above half strength, and outnumbered him. Is this correct? Anyway, I rolled a 7 and the squad bolted off the table. Apparently they couldn't even regroup because his guys were nearby.
    This is correct. Pages 44 and 45 in the rulebook cover this

    My razorwing did nothing, would have been far better off with a 3rd ravager. I was planning on firing all 4 missiles at a squad sometime, but all of his squads were mounted in transports which were sitting at the back of the board, un needed.
    Right now the DE community the world over are debating this issue. Looking at what you've said was in your army then yes, a ravager would have potentially been better, but there are so many combinations of units available in the codex nobody can say with 100% certainty yet.

    If you know the answer to my questions, or want to comment on what I should have done, please reply
    You are right about one thing - being scared will result in a loss, you need to keep an offensive going and keep applying pressure as much as possible, even while it all goes wrong.

    While there is no super insider secret to DE my experience has taught me because DE ustilise a lot of the rules in the rulebook from many different sections it pays to know the core rules rather well. From this point you can start to see how units interact with said core rules and thus their place with a DE army becomes easier to define.

    A good example is the common mistake of people arming kabalite warriors for assault simply because they can get a model that looks respectable on paper. [n]Never[/b] do this unless you really know what you are doing - warriors are not built for assault in any shape so don't let the WS4 and I5 trick you into it.

  6. #5
    Orks_n_Bugs Bugs_n_Orks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Outsider
    I would advise against putting a haemonculi in such a unit - he may increase their durability but he does not have fleet, thus slowing the unit down. Super long range assaults are a key element of any DE assault unit. You are better off hiding their transport (they will always have a transport) than risking taking a more direct route due to lack of fleet.

    That said, if you were to get the haemonculi to leave the unit the second the game starts (leaving the token with the unit) thats fine, but you can't go flatout if you do that.
    I just wanted to add that with the 5th Ed. rules you can leave the Haemonculus in the raider when your wyches disembark (and still take the pain token with you), which is the best of both worlds in my opinion (FnP wyches and no loss of mobility).

    Other than that I completely agree with everything you said, especially this part:
    You are right about one thing - being scared will result in a loss, you need to keep an offensive going and keep applying pressure as much as possible, even while it all goes wrong.
    The meat things seek to destroy ourselves. They hunt us as we hunt them but they are weak and uncertain. Bring them understanding of the power of ourselves through our strength and their fear. The inferior flesh will be entirely destroyed, all fragments will be smashed. Ourselves will fight to the last, all weak flesh must be consumed

  7. #6
    Senior Member Archon Charybdis's Avatar
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    First, I gotta say kudos to Outsider for the detailed and well cited response, and I just wanted to add on a couple things.

    Quote Originally Posted by sepiroth View Post
    In the game, I also made a lot of dumb mistakes such as moving a warrior squad between a ravager and his landraider. Should he have been allowed to make a 4+ cover save even though I had blatant LOS etc?
    5th edition uses True Line of Sight for determining whether you can see a target to shoot at it, and determining whether a target gets a cover save. In this case, determining line of sight from the barrel of your dark lance (which should be several inches over the heads of your warriors), I find it very unlikely that the landraider was in any way obscured by the warriors. Had you been shooting with an infantry model, who was lower to the ground and had to draw LoS through the other warrior squad, then it's possible he might have been able to claim a cover save, but even then more than 50% of the landraider's facing would have to be covered.

    He even fired a lascannon at a raider and his other lascannon at a ravager in one turn... Apparently Machine Spirit allowed this?
    Yes, Power of the Machine Spirit allows this, but he still has to fire all his weapons at the same time. He can't finish his normal shooting, see whether or not he kills a target, and then go back and use PotMS after his Landraider's shooting has ended.

    I spent my next turn shooting everything I had at the Landraider, but he kept claiming random cover saves (must be my 4th Ed brain screwing me over).
    This sounds kind of fishy. As has been mentioned several times, it's kind of difficult for a vehicle to claim a cover save, especially a vehicle as big as a landraider. Landraiders do come with Smoke Launchers, which can grant him a 4+ cover save in lieu of shooting for one turn a game, but without that 50% of the vehicle facing that you're shooting at would have to be completely obscured from your firing model's line of sight. It's very difficult for space marine models, even if bunched around the Landraider, to block 50% of it.

    Next turn, he moved his 'raider 12", fired two lascannons, got his marine squad out which moved, and then assaulted my warrior squad. (Is this legal?!)
    There were a couple of semi-conflicting answers on this already, but this is illegal for 2 reasons.

    1.) When moving more than 6'' a Landraider (a non-fast vehicle) cannot normally fire any weapons. PotMS would allow him to fire one weapon, but there's no way he should be firing 2 lascannons when moving 12''.

    2.) When disembarking from a moving vehicle, passengers cannot then move on their own. The Landraider's "Assault Vehicle" special rule does allow you to assault out of it after moving, but beyond that they can't make an extra movement.


    Despite the fact that I was above half strength, and outnumbered him.
    Outnumbering and half strength don't play any role in combat resolution these days. Being under half strength only really matters in the game for determining whether a fleeing unit is eligible to rally.

  8. #7
    Senior Member El_Jairo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archon Charybdis View Post
    5th edition uses True Line of Sight for determining whether you can see a target to shoot at it, and determining whether a target gets a cover save. In this case, determining line of sight from the barrel of your dark lance (which should be several inches over the heads of your warriors), I find it very unlikely that the landraider was in any way obscured by the warriors. Had you been shooting with an infantry model, who was lower to the ground and had to draw LoS through the other warrior squad, then it's possible he might have been able to claim a cover save, but even then more than 50% of the landraider's facing would have to be covered.
    A very good notion Charybdis. I would like to emphasize the importance of which side is facing to your shooting source. It is this side that has to be 50% obscured from your shooting LoS.
    In the rules it is stated that you can, in some rare case, be in the side of a vehicle but only see it's rear or front, in this case the vehicle gains a 3+ cover save. More importantly this means that if you are shooting in the side you don't have to take into account the front or rear of the vehicle regarding the "50% obscured rule". This is a nuance many players underestimate.

    A more general comment I would like to make: Dark Eldar are a fragile army that can hit hard (like it is stated in the codex) so either you get tabled or you most likely table your opponent.
    To get the hang of the general rules a lot better I suggest that you would play some games with Space Marines or Orks, because they have some more staying power, which will allow you to understand and enjoy the mechanics of the game more. Now you will get your Raider shot and it will explode. With a Rhino you can pop smoke and see that it is in a position where it gets a lot of attention, so next time you will try another route but the Rhino still has a chance to survive... With AV11 and not open topped.

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