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Hello, to all Dark Eldar players new and old... Having read the codex now several time but having never actually played Dark Eldar (old or new), I am wondering how do you find the current state of Dark Eldar?
My own feelings are quite mixed... They seem to have some really nice things, but at the same time the "ultimate-glass-cannon" concept with T3 and "anything will penetrate" armor saves topped with AV10 makes them seem really fragile to me. Actuall, as I'm coming from Necron/Space Marine playing background they seem really, really, really fragile. Like, blown-over-by-breeze fragile. And that in combination with PfP rules makes me wonder if DE are ultimately forced to rely on Haemonculi to be competitive. But thats just me.
So what do you think?
Revenant Moon Necrons: (W/L/D) 0/1/0 (6th edition: 13/2/2)(5th edition: 14/6/4)(3rd edition Codex: 16/4/7)
XIX Legion: (W/L/D) 0/0/0 (5th edition: 14/12/2)(5th edition Codex: 4/3/0)
Black Legion: (W/L/D) 1/0/0 (6th edition: 2/3/0)
Something Wicked... Reikwald Beastmen: (W/L/D) 10/4/1
I completely agree about the fragility, i've come from my blood angels (my 2nd love in 40k) to dark eldar (my 1st love played them at the tail end of second ed), so i'm used to T4 3+ save with FnP! Going to T3 with a worthless armour save is quite a shock!
That said i think it's possible to make a tough DE army, wracks, grotesques, beast masters with clawfiends are all very resilient units!
I think shooting has gotten a lot nastier, sure we don't have cheap lances anymore but ravagers are nicely priced and splinter weaponry is fantastic! (until someone sneezes at your raider and it falls apart)
Competitive lists i feel will rely on 3 ravagers as always with MSU's of warriors in venoms and raiders and maybe 1 or 2 big units of wracks to assault objectives (wracks led by haemonculus are truly terrifying).
Some units are still pretty worthless in a competitive enviroment (mandrakes come to mind) and you might be right about relience on haemonculus time will tell.
Overall the army gained a hell of alot of variety with several potentially competitive lists (haemonculus carnival of horrors list, warrior shooty list, assaulty list and all come in mech or WWP varieties) no 2 dark eldar armies will ever be quite the same!
I haven't played the old codex for very long, but I played enough in 5th edition to get a good understanding of how the army works. Believe it or not, the army actually got a lot tougher than before.
We've always been tough as glass with T3 across the board and bad armour saves. With the addition to PfP, most of our stuff can get FnP fairly early in the game since we still bring a lot of firepower to the table. Also, Flickerfields grant our Vehicles a 5++ save (previously unheard of). We don't have to move flat out anymore to get a save. The Archon can get upgraded armour and the Shadowfield is still around (and not 1 per army!).
Ravagers have gotten better now that they can move cruising speed and still fire all weapons.
All in all, we're still a glass hammer, but we're much tougher than we were before.
Coming from a Blood Angel perspective I can definitely see how others view us as fragile. However as a long time DE player I think it's important to remember that we got substantially tougher from our old codex. Think about it, before we had armor 5 saves and nothing else and Vehicles with armour 10/11. Since almost everything weapon has AP 5 that meant no saves and if you could hit a vehicle with a missile launcher it was going down. Now we have feel no pain and flickerfields. So look at the numbers
5 Space marines shoot 10 shots. Thats 4.5 wounds on our warriors. Now if we have feel no pain its only 2.25 wounds and if we have 4+ cover thats 1 dead warrior
Now if we shoot at the marines 20 shots (Since 10 warriors= point cost of 5 space marines) thats 2.3 space marines that die. So really I'll take our guys over normal SM any time. If that wasn't good enough be sure to test 5 marines vs 10 warriors in CC
Now if that wasn't enough check out our vehicles which now get 5+ invulnerable saves with flickerfields. Let's say I have a raider setup that has 1 haemonculi and 9 warriors. Ok so you have a missile launcher that can hit my vehicle, then wound it (with armour 10 easy enough), then roll well enough to destroy my vehicle (lucky you its open topped) then I take a 5+ invuln save. Given that my vehicle explodes my models get a 10 models will get saves on 5 wounds so I get 5+ to save and a 4+ feel no pain. That means only 1.6 models of mine die when my vehicle goes boom.
So I agree that our vehicles are very much glass cannon at armour 10/11 but given where we were on our previous codex our glass has gotten significantly stronger.
The codex got better in every single way bare 3.
1) Lance snipers - now you can't jsut plonk down 10 men with 2 lances for 100 points infantry moutned anti-tank has to be considered carefully in its contsruction. 10 men with 1 lance is stil la steal.
2) Pinning - with the terror/horrofex gone reliable pinning has mostly disappeared, but we should've seen that coming as both were horribly, horribly broken.
3) Disintegrators - or how I liked ot call it "remove that unit". We should've also seen this coming, I wouldn't mind S6 but S5 is still solid and a triple disintegrator avager will murder best part of a unit.
Minus those things the codex is better in every single way.
Favorite move to play in this new codex is:
3 Kabalite Trueborn (2 Splinter Cannons) inside a Venom with a Splinter Cannon Upgrade
So if you think about it that's 4 Splinter Cannons shooting 24 shots (36 inch range) for a substantially cheap point cost.
And if you try to shoot my venom I get 5+ Invuln save as a minimum (if I'm behind cover I could get a 4)
Also if I wanted I could put in night shields to reduce your range by 6.
So all in all the codex makes DE significantly better but there are 4 things I miss about the old codex
1) combat drugs were better. Especially with archons
2) Archons on jetbikes- this was my favorite move. Archons in CC by second turn guaranteed. Preferrably with opponents heavy weapon squad
3) Succubus getting shadowfield- now nothing
4) dissintegrators had higher S
I think the new dex comes close to what I want in a codex but it ultimately still falls short. It's hands down better than the 2nd printing we have been using for so many years. It has more units that are interesting and have potential to get onto the battlefield.
Another step in the right direction was being able to use HQ's to make other FOC choices troops. The baron and Haemys do that nicely. I would have liked them to have lelith make brides score, Drhazar make incubbi score and so on. That way we have more choices and the armies will look a lot more varied at the competitive level. They need to take the next step and make SC's all have something worth taking. Lets say you have an archon in your list. Do you take the Decapitator over a Duke or Haemmy? Probably not.
Where I think they came up short (and what I would like from every dex) is for each unit to be a tough decision within its FOC slot. And this is where I think they fell short. For instance, IMO, a trueborn unit has a far better chance to make it into my lists than mandrakes or Incubbi do. The drakes seem more interesting than last edition but their cost and not being able to shoot on turn one without a share the pain benefit, make them less attractive. Inc seem to be about 3 or so points too expensive IMO.
I think GW should make the FOC the limiting factor and not the units themselves. If all the choices are equally good, then the player has a tough time deciding what to take. They haven't achieved that in this codex and quite frankly, after this many years, they should have figured it out by now.
multi meltas can't use their 2 D6 special rule as with a -6" on our viechles, multi melta 24" away can't shoot, melta gun 6" away (why's he there? should have been killed HOURS ago!) will only get 1 D6! also template = rubbish!