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i am coming more an d more yo the conclusion than shooty is the way to go with the new codex.
has this directions been already explored? a mainly shooty army ?
As the old saying goes, "It depends". Against shooty armies like Tau and IG you want CC. Against CC armies like BA, Nids, Chaos Khorne shooty may be better. Here are my general observations on the 3 options (Shooty, CC, Mix)
Shooty- I have tried the old model of 3 Ravagers, 6 Raider Squads of Warrriors, and Trueborns in Venoms. The army was solid. It is slightly better than the old codex since you can now get 5+ invulnerable saves on vehicles. However, I found myself wanting more especially because there is lots of new stuff to try in the codex. Here are my favorite shooty options:
1) The splinter cannon is just awesome now. I highly recommend taking a Venom with SC upgrade and 3 Trueborn (2 with SC). This option gives 4 SC on the cheap
2) Liquifier Gun- Always take this option on Wracks & Haemonculi.
3) Haywire Blaster- This gun is awesome on the Talos and DE best option vs the Monolith
4) Heat Lance- Nothing kills vehicles better (great for Scourges & Jetbikes)
5) Razorwing Jetfighters with SC & Nightshields- This is so awesome. 4 Large Templates, 2 DL, and 1 SC means one dead opponent infantry unit. I consistently kill 175 points of infantry on T1 with this option
CC- Honestly I haven't tried to build a complete CC army via wrack or wyches. It looks promising especially since I have had good luck with CC units such as:
1)9 Incubi with Haemonculi
2)Asdrubael Vect with 9 Wracks in a Raider
These options allow you to start with Feel no Pain so both last long enough to really do some damage
Mix of both- In the end I find myself on this option more than any other. It really does allow for the greatest flexibility. I like being able to have My raiders go in and shoot while my Beasmasters get cover and Assault Turn 2 with Clawed Fiends. I find I need to use both. For example I like the 9 Incubi with Haemonculi but it's too expensive to take 3. So I add in Trueborn to provide some distance via SCs or DLs.
For a great overview of the new codex and how to build be sure to read:
Last edited by mrvegas; December 25th, 2010 at 20:02.
I comme very close to your conclusions , having tried wracks and haimies, and which.
My son have a BA mech army that I use as " test Mark"
My son pointed as helions. I normally do not consider them. But dis-engagement maybe a hint. Raiders with warriors would shoot the first line and helions would then go to block LoS with a cc. And disengage on the opponent turn. ( possibly dragging the priest with them)
( I discovered disengagement tactics when playing sob, with seraphins )
Anybody already tried that ?
Try to strike a balance if possible. A pure close combat army is not optimal, but neither is pure shooting. They can work, but you always want the option to sit on an objective and defend it and the ability to destroy transports during the shooting phase while being able to wipe out weakened squads, seize objectives, and tie up dangerous shooting squads in the assault phase. Just remember that if your CC army is going up against another CC army you can use your speed to isolate and decimate a few units at a time.
League Stats: Orks 4W-1L-1T, CSM 4W-2L-0T, Dark Eldar 10W-6L-4T, Tau 3W-1L-1T, Blood Angels 4W-1L-1T, Imperial Guard 2W-1L-0T
Tourney Stats: Blood Angels 6W-0L-0T, Dark Eldar 2W-1L-0T
A lot of people don't "get" how DE work in regard to shooting/assault based forces. Generally a proper balanced force (i.e an equal 50/50 split of close combat and shooting) isn't the most ideal solution as you get sucked into requiring upgrades for units that are ultimately only a small part of the force and you will quickly eat away at your points limit (when built from the typical units seen in every list on the internet).
It is usually a better idea to have the focus shift more to either clsoe combat or shooting and give the force a 60/40 split in favour of whichever you want. Historically (read: the old ocdex) was a shooty codex with close combat support, but the new oen you can finally do a proper close combat force with shooting support.
Given the very nature of how 40k works it is far easier to build a shooting force with close combat support - I still think this is the best spot for DE as you can capitalise upon some strengths DE have that no over force does (namely the poisoned weaposn and cheap access to anti-tank) as a close combat focused army is competing in an area that isn't entirely unique to it and there are many assault units out there which will beatdown most DE assault units if they get the charge.
It is worth noting that a true 50/50 split can be done, but it requires a totally different approach to list construction that frankly most players are incapable of - primarily because the whole concept of spamming/mass redundancy starts to fall apart as you start to box your own strengths in when you have such a diverse pool of units to choose from (this is why SM excel at it as a marine is a marine is a marine, their gear is what determines where they sit more or less) and secondly it relies upon things you cannot represent on paper.
very interesting. I am coming to the point that DE is not as "simple" to play, because winning is not something about list , but about the way to play it, and this is not easy to capture this in writing. ( maybe using "patterns" ?)
You can create some very powerful combos by using unit combinations that most people write off. For example: you come up against a long fang spam army (that is, maximum long fangs with missiles out the backside) - here 3 squads of blaster trueborn would work, but you are playing the game of trying to outgun your opponent, no matter what else you have in your list those 3 squads will pretty much determine how the force is built by their very existence.
If on the other hand you had only 1 squad of trueborn, a unit of mandrakes and a unit of harlequins you now have a team of units that will be fairly difficult to stop as they all ned to be dealt with differently which puts pressure on your opponent's strategy as well as on the very list itself, suddenly the concept of gunning down 3 transports and the guys inside is nowhere to be found and they will have to rethink their plan else they be tied up by the mandrakes on one end, assaulted by the harlies on the other and with at least 2 units tieed up destroyed by the trueborn as they approach their target uncontested.
While that is oversimplifiying it a bit, hopefully I have explained what I mean.Exactly, a list can look subpar and still be a killing machine, it is all about synergising what you have. Obviously taking 30 incubi at 1500 isn't sensible (it leaves nothing else in the force), but taking a bit of everything in moderation (lean and mean is *the* design philosophy to follow here) you can have a diverse force that has an answer to any threat - even if it isn't a direct "hard" counter.very interesting. I am coming to the point that DE is not as "simple" to play, because winning is not something about list , but about the way to play it, and this is not easy to capture this in writing. ( maybe using "patterns" ?)
Last edited by The_Outsider; December 27th, 2010 at 13:43. Reason: grammar? spelling? never heard of it!
great ! so rather than taking list, we should document patterns of usage : given one threat, or target, how can you kill/ defeat/ delay/ deny it ?
and assemble list from several patterns :
given one or more heavy weapon team ( long fan especailly), throw mandrake and run arlequin to them ( to keep them busy) while a raider with warrior comes in and finish the job:
pro: heavy weapon are busy while engaged in CC, hence denied, hence the raiser can come safely
against : is really efficient if there is enough heavy weapons grouped at the arrival point ( and not too much interception team in between)
Mandrakes are okay at dealing with marine heavy weapon squads - they are used in this case simply to tie them up for a turn while real close combat units arrive. yet versus guard, eldar, some nid armies they become killing machines as these forces often have powerful weapons on squishy people.
Plus while its a drag mandrakes need their first pain token remember baleblast is pinning - a pinned unit doesn't get the benefit of cover if assaulted.
I go 75-80% "shooty", with the rest as elite CC squads.
Its amazing what 10 hekatrix bloodbrides (3 hydra gauntlets), including a syren (agoniser) can do!