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Well guys in light of the codex wishlist thread I'm feeling like we need a series of threads about each individual unit, to really talk in detail about what's wrong with them, and how we can fix them.
So today let's start with our favourite hot topic; the humble guardian.
IMO the guardians biggest fault is that it is an overpriced IG guardsman, with inferior weaponry. Guardians offer very little to a convential Eldar army, beyond being 8pt, wussy scorpions-analogues for when all your elite slots are already occupied.
IMO we can fix the guardian by raising his bs/ws both to 4. Just having guardians being slightly more reliable in combat (3+ to hit) would improve their viability.
I imagine these threads will be quite brief, which is good. Getting bogged down by ridiculous proposals doesn't help. Eldar aren't completely terrible, they just need a couple of buffs to be good. This is a collaborative effort by the way, so post your opinions on why the unit isn't good, and a proposed fix.
Last edited by MrBenis; January 6th, 2011 at 11:59.
My compiled thoughts blog.
If someone posts something helpful +rep them
I think what we need are more ways to achieve duality in threats while preserving our specialist elite feel.
Now talking about guardians:
They need 4+ armour, multiple special weapons options, ws4/bs4. Need to be on par with veterans of IG. The specialist theme can come from the separation of defender guardians with multiple cheaper heavy weapons platforms and storm ones with multiple (4+) flamer/melta/third special weapon.
Warlock powers should be redesigned or warlocks should disappear entirely from sergeant roles and be replaced with "xxx" that can bring specialization to these squads.
This should be combined with a redesigned serpent.
Also what i feel what Eldar need to have redesigned is the EML that should be a cyclone with pinning not a regular missile launcher with pinning.
my 2 cents
Hight elf and Craftworld Eldar army project pics heavy: linky
simple guys this is what i think based on the background i know about eldar, guardians should keep being WS3 BS3(maibe this one 4) armor save makes sense at 5+, think like this they are civilians, never wore armor for combat, they are suposed to be mobile and fight from afar so they armor is made so it can be used like it would be normal clothes, but they have awsome techonology so they can make an armor like this being as good as one of a human soldier (not bad), the weapons defenetly should be kept at assault but for crying out loud not 12 inchs perhaps 18 but this would require that either became assault 1 or that dire avangers should be changed, and as for leaders not warlocks but makes more sense former aspect warriors that went to a different path (a civilian one) and they should have a armor 4+ WS4 BS4 and the options of choosing weapons from normal aspect warriors (they old aspect weapon) after all they should know how to use it.
sorry for any English mistake
I agree largely with niraco, saves should be 4+ and the WS and BS should be increased. Unit sized should be 5-20 instead of 10-20. Now, Defender and Storm guardians should be two different options in the codex (easier to read and make them unique). Points cost should be about the same, possibly raised to 10, but not more. Weapon options and such also need to be adjusted, like the Starcannon and Bright Lance, although the BS4 will be a good step in making the weapons more worth their cost, they are still in need of adjustment, mostly down in points cost by 5-10 depending on the weapon.
Defender Guardians should have a better range, 18" or preferably 24"-30", they are after all meant as a support unit, to compensate they can lose one shot, or possibly have their weapon type changed to rapid fire. They should also be able to take more heavy weapons platforms, say 0-3 (yes, 0 if you don't want one).
Storm guardians I like as they are, with the enhancements above they don't need a lot of work. Letting them have between 0-4 special weapons would be nice though.
Warlocks should be changed, although I'll leave details on this for when you want us to tackle them.
Adding a mini-autarch to the Guardians as a leader would be nice. Stats sort of like an Exarch, a power weapon option, more LD, with some cool tactical upgrades. Maybe the option to let his unit outflank/infiltrate, or giving them stealth or preferred enemy. A little vague here I know, but the point is to give them something fun that lends them some more interesting tactical options.
Some people will say that we already have this unit in Dire Avengers, I think Dire Avengers should be changed also, to another role. Because lets face it, Dire Avengers are what Guardians should have been from the beginning.
Last edited by Inian; January 6th, 2011 at 13:19. Reason: added part about Dire Avengers
Why make them the new Dire Avengers? Raising their statline would go against fluff in my opinion. Maybe just emphasize their role as a background unit with rapid fire weaponry.
I don't think it goes against fluff at all, in hy honest opinion BS and WS 4 should be the fluffy norm for Eldar, with 5 being not uncommon. Basically we should have better I and WS/BS than marines, but with S and T 3. Our saves are also way to poor for a dying race without any material or technological problems to supply their troops with good gear. 4+ should be the minimum, and we should even have 2+ saves on some units (Scorpions and Warp Spiders are a suggestion).
Fluffwise a Guardian can be a veteran warrior, having served as a Warlock, and in several Warrior Aspects before. There is no reason to think of them as untrained/ill-equipped. In fact, Eldar "boot-camp" should far outweigh anything the Imperium has to offer for its normal soldies, so they should be at least on par with IG veterans when it comes to combat skills.
People always underestimate the gap between the scores in 40k. A WS of 3 represents a trained warrior - even double-hard yes sir! kill 'em now sir! stormtroopers are a 3. A WS of 4 represents some significant edge in capability, equipment, or experience.
Veteran guardians - would be drawn to the path of the warrior, to purge the dark side of their psyche before their lust for battle overcomes them. Guardians throw off their mantle as warriors for good reason, they arn't veterans because they choose not to let the memories and mentality of war linger and follow them back into civilian life.
Though there are the Black Guardians of the Ulthwe who might make an appearance in the next book.
I don't think they forget how to fire a gun or wield a sword. They do however forget how good it felt to rip apart a Tau with a chainsword, or the pleasure they felt watching as a small squad of humans rip themselves apart on monofilament wire.
But still, I've seen people argue both ways, that it's against fluff and goes with the fluff, and that's not the point of this thread. Needless to say, if GW feel they want to change some part of the fluff, then they will, so looking at old fluff is not an absolute answer.
What I said above was part personal opinion, but I'm mostly thinking about the good of our codex. I won't want another edition of everyone saying "Use Dire Avengers instead of Guardians, at least they have BS 4 and Sv 4+. We need the role Dire Avengers have now, it's fairly versatile and can handle most things, this is what our "militia" is supposed to to, be versatile and give us numbers. Dire Avengers are elite warriors, training with a purpose, I just don't think they would go for a purpose that is "only decent allround choice". I'd much rather see them get AP3 weapons, or S5 weapons, or something similar, than have them the same as they are now and enduring another 5+ years of a codex where two thirds of the units aren't used because the other third does the exact same thing only better.
This thread turned exactly into what I thought it would. People saying every single thing that would basically make them dire avengers with even better options. Which will NEVER happen and is FOOLISH to suggest. You veterens know better.
First off, as they are now...they are over priced. They should be 5 or 6 points.
War locks are over priced period. They should be about 16 Points.
Warlock powers are fair prices.
Platform weapons are all about 5-10 points over priced considering BS 3.
NOW, if we made a REALISTIC change to guardians without changing the entire way the codex currently has them written:
Guardians same stat line, including there 5+ save.
Weapon range changed to either range 18" or rapid fire. (avenger catapult should be range 24")
Platform weapons should be slightly reduced in price (about 5 points a weapon)
Should be 1 platform PER 10 models.
Warlock price reduced to around the price of a banshee.
Just these changes right here would make them WAY WAY WAY better.
Now what would be pretty cool and somewhat how guardians run in the eldar novels I have read:
-Introduce a Sergeant upgrade for the unit. Armed with either Shuriken Catapult or HW and Shuriken Pistol.
-Allow the purchase of a power weapon +10 Points
-Warlocks now become an addition to a squad like a commissar. Either reduce points or make them 2 wound models.
-New powers would be nice but not required. (augment from 4th edition should return but doesn't benefit guardians ha)
-Shuriken Catapults are now Range 18" str 4, ap 5, assault 2
-Heavy Weapon Platforms are now 1 for every 10 models (not counting warlock)
-Heavy Weapon Platform prices slightly reduced by 5 -10 points depending on the weapon
-Plasma Grenades standard (hell, all imperium gets free grenades now!)
-Price guardians at 5 or 6 points, sergeant upgrade (with +1 A and +1 LD) +12 points, +1 Warlock at 25 points( if 2 wounds) or 16 points (if same state line).
Heavy Support Platforms now become a troop choice working similar to heavy weapon detachments in IG platoon.
There price and guns are fine the way they are now. Just move them outta heavy support.
Same state line.
Same price cost.
Add same sergeant options as above.
Add same warlock options as above.
Take 2 special weapons per squad as now.
-Fusion, Flamer, or shuriken cannon. (in eldar prophecy it describes them as waist mounted weapons that guardians carry around)
-Wave serpent still dedicated transport option with all same stats, but slightly reduced base cost from 90 to 70.
-Falcon now becomes a dedicated transport with reduced base cost from 115-60 or 70.
-Same vehicle upgrades (please bring back crystal targeting matrix)
Sorry everyone, I live in this fantasy world. haha.
Eldar -APOC- 6500 Points
Chaos Daemons -Fate Crusher- 3500 Points
Grey knights - 1000 Points
Don't forget guardians pay a surplus on their heavy weapons because they are treated as assault weapons - bright lances are in line with 5th ed dark eldar and shuri-cannons are practically free (yes, I know DE are BS4...)