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Today we talk about the heavy support platforms. They've got a lot of potential. A counterweight to fast skimmers? A trap for heavy infantry? Our only real artillery (literally) options.Okay so the general structure of these threads is to address our BAD units first, then move on to the better ones. Please always read every post to avoid repetition. Please also try to discuss only the unit in question specificly. Referencing other units is OK, but should be limited to times when the other unit directly overlaps the target unit of this thread. Please do not adjust the units points cost. Let's bring our boys UP TO the points we're being charged, rather than lower them for the benefit of more units elsewhere. We're an elite army, right? Let's be expensive and ridiculously deadly, then.
These threads will work in two stages. First we brainstorm about the flaws as we perceive them, and provide a wide list of changes as we feel is appropriate. Phase two is taking the most supported ideas, compiling them together and finally arguing over any critical additions to the changelist.
Let's follow the formula, and break them down. When we've looked at their guts, we build them back up.
Short range, extremely high killing power. Small blast. This weapon epitomises defensive artillery.
Unfortunately defensive artillery don't have a place in an eldar army. With less range than some infantry weapons it's difficult to justify their use. The special rules the weapon gets for damage may or may not be brilliant, but only really against infantry hordes, especially slow MCs. Doesn't allow barrage rules even though it really should. Coversaves against blackholes?
Rather unique procedure of target acquisition and firing give some leeway. Decent range, pinning and up to S7 so make this weapon great for scoring large numbers of hits that can wound anything in the game.
Once again the critical problem with the support weapons emerges. Units get coversaves, and an AP- value. 36" puts this above the range of infantry weapons but at or below most vehicle mounted ones. The unit can't decide what it's meant for. If you find yourself being able to whip out dozens of wounds from a single shot, good for you. JoTWW costs less and is even better.
The simplest of the support artillery. This is a primitive doomweaver that, critically, lacks the special rule which makes doomweavers useful. Longest range of the 3 also.
This weapon needs to be rending at least to be useful. If it also gained the special rule from the doomweaver then that would be excellent, but I wouldn't count on it. It would start stepping on toes then.
So these things in consideration, I can see some areas to improve on.
D-cannon; increase range to 36". Barrage rules.
Vibrocannon; always strikes rear armour on vehicles and rolls for damage like other weapons, range increased to 48".
Shadowweaver; redundant. Can be safely pruned. But since they just released a new set of models for them they could, theoreticly just benefit from rending, multiple barrage rules.
Thats the big IMO on these guys. I always wanted to field them, I can see their field applications but they just have no good rules for use. Vibrocannon is a possible exception against guard in its current form, as you automaticly score a glancing hit thus many shaken/stunned results can neutralise a big portion of their army per shot should you actually get to fire. As they don't require LOS to fire that's even better.
Does anyone else see a way to make them worth their points? They aren't going away, like I said before, they just got new models. We're very obviously stuck with them for at least another edition. Let's make them worthwhile for once then.
36" is still too low. also price is way up for some (not d cannon). Shadowweaver is not necessary redundant but need to be on par with nightspinner (meaning the damn rule of dangerous tests).
I see d-cannon 48"range barrage i see vibrocannon 60" range no cover saves autoglance and shadowweaver 12-72" barrage doomweaver rule. give them some nice upgrades and somehow not ld 8 and 5+ save and should be done.
The main problem with them is that they are a Heavy Support choice. Changing them to an add-on-type unit for Guardians would go a long way. Say, you get to buy one Support Weapon Battery for each squad of Guardians (Storm and Defender) you buy. These would be outside of the FOC, or possibly count as troops, either way is fine in my opinion, although the former is preferred.
Apart from this some minor tweaks would suffice, like increasing the range somewhat, adding rending etc.
Also, I'd like to add that the D-cannon and Shadow Weaver ARE Barrage weapons, since all G-type weapons count as Barrage. So for the most part they do deny cover, they are also Pinning because of this.
Adding something similar to the Night Spinner rules to the Shadow Weaver could be fun, but I would limit it to infantry only, and not vehicles. It's basic purpose is an Eldar equivalent of a Mortar, something to take out weaker infantry blobs with.
I thought a unit entry had to specifically say barrage to get that rule? Or is that in the BRB?
BRB has a section on Barrage weapons, in there it states that in the previous edition this was known as G-type weapons, and they now count as Barrage instead.
I vote add to guardian defender squad.
D-Cannon: wounds on a 2+ instant death on a 6, 30" range (so its not too OP, if it was something like 48 it would ruin the game), no saves besides invunerable. Dont know what it would do to tanks.
Vibro Cannon: Same rules as JotWW would be the best bet. probably 24- 30" range.
Shadow weaver: Can we say nightspinner rules? I believe it is the same kind of shot.
Mabey add one weapon, like an average S6 AP5 Large blast that dosn't do much. Just for being super low points.
I would see GW dropping this unit if they hadn't made a new model for it recently...
Yes as in the book.
And get dem Dragons out of dem Falcons! Downright embarisin sometimes.
Concerning the shadow weaver, and the recent use of apocalypse units in the game in recent codeci... I'd like me a large template flamer-style.
In 2nd edition I almost always used D-Cannons! I agree that either their range needs to be increased (I think 30" is adequate) or they can all move and fire. Being on grav platforms and all.
I recently used the Vibro Cannons and they were freakin awesome! I don't mind the autoglance, as that means at the very least the target can't shoot for 1 turn. And being able to hit models in CC is pretty sweet.
Shadow Weaver definitely needs an upgrade. Rending and large blast would be great along with a range boost. Adding them to Guardian squads (but perhaps can't be put in transports) would do nicely.
At the beginning of turn 1, I spray my opponent's army with the bacon flavored spray. Then I unleash my Boston Terrier Squiggoth who then devours their entire bacon flavored army! There is no defense against her cuteness! All are doomed!
D-cannons are AWESOME just more range if it's going to remain stationary.
Vibro Cannons- Need an AP of like 6 for vehicals. Also a glance for each vibro cannon.
Shadow Weaver- Up maybe 10-15 points maybe 20 if they get the night spinner rules, only small blast.
If they were to be added to guardian squads(YESSS) they should be stationary wepons.
guys ..still cannot understand how d-cannons with 30" range are awesome...can someone explain me how an av10 imobile vehicle is awesome? or ld8 5+ crew that if they fail their ld and flee the cannon is destroyed? hello.... at 30" a chimera can go foward disembark 10 vets and then goodbye artillery. Find this awesome? artillery without 48 inches range are useless. Is there in whole game a single artilery with less than 36" range? including hand artilerry (mortars and tempestlaunchers ones)?