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  1. #1
    Member Vinsklortho's Avatar
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    Space Marines-1 Dark Eldar-0

    We're a tough army to play and the most consistent thing I've heard across the internet is that our codex is one of the most balanced straight out of the gates with little if any units being useless and none being overpowered. Pretty much our codex was done right. Many people say our ability to get FNP is overpowered, but just as many from what I've seen is that FNP on T3 models is really no big deal. On average FNP on a T3 5+ save model makes them as tough as marines in the save department. We did get one unit that is pretty easy to use(albeit awkward physically) that is kind of our "Thunderwolf Cavalry" style unit. It is tough(wound allocation shenanigans) and deadly(up to 100 S4 attacks on the assault or 60 rending attacks on the assault), but it does have its weaknesses(Ld 8, T3 majority, huge footprint, cost).

    However, GW deems that the xenos shouldn't have any real advantage over their beloved imperium. This FAQ that came out directly contradicts RAW. There was an issue over whether pain tokens could benefit Harlequins, but from what I could see very few if any people had any doubt over beastmasters benefitting as it specifically states pain tokens grant a special rule to the entire unit, and unlike the Harlequins, some native members of the unit itself had the PfP rule. Listed below is the specific FAQ entry that horribly nerfs Beastmaster packs in case you were wondering.

    Q: When a unit comprised of some models with Power
    from Pain and some without has a pain token, does the
    effect it gives apply to every model in the unit or just to the
    models with the Power from Pain special rule? (p25)
    A: It only applies to the models with the Power from Pain
    special rule.

    Of course we're overpowered and deserve such a counter-RAW nerf. Maybe they'll give us a FAQ that prevents the Shadowfield from giving its save against power weapons. Hell, they got rid of our model sniping abilities of the implosion missile, but Jaws of the World Wolf is fine. I'm almost afraid to mention that Shattershard still maintains its model sniping abilities in fear of GW realizing this and nerfing it. Unsurprisingly, Thunderwolf Cavalry kept their natural T5 instead of being nerfed to T4(5). However, the section of the marines FAQ that completely caught me off guard is the section on ATSKNF.

    Q. When a unit with the And They Shall Know no Fear
    special rule regroups do they get to immediately move up
    to 3" as well as moving as normal that turn? (p51)
    A. Yes.

    I'm sure all of the loyalist marine chapters needed that boost. Some people play Warhammer 40k as an actual competitive game where the chances between either side winning is based on skill and luck. While I enjoy the fluff, I do not play Warhammer 40k as some sort of story telling how the Imperium of Man triumphs over the evil xenos and heretics. Maybe I'm overreacting in this rage post, but this entire round of FAQs just stinks of Space Marine favoritism. I know GW makes Space Marine variants easy to play, but I rarely thought that they would go out of their way to sabotage non-Space Marines.

    League Stats: Orks 4W-1L-1T, CSM 4W-2L-0T, Dark Eldar 10W-6L-4T, Tau 3W-1L-1T, Blood Angels 4W-1L-1T, Imperial Guard 2W-1L-0T
    Tourney Stats: Blood Angels 6W-0L-0T, Dark Eldar 2W-1L-0T

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  3. #2
    Orks_n_Bugs Bugs_n_Orks's Avatar
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    To be fair we now earn Pain tokens for ICs even if they're with a (non-retinue) unit which RAW we didn't before, Voidravens can bomb while moving flat out, and no more combat squading if you're in reserve or firing with Power of the Machine Spirit when you pop smoke.

    While I certainly dislike the PfP ruling (I much prefer the INAT version esp. since it was in line with the RAW). I have to say that it does kind of make sense.

    The one I really didn't see coming was the WWP thing. Not within 2" of another portal makes sense I guess so you can't make impenetrable walls of 6 WWP (but for 510 point minimum I feel like this isnt that big of a deal). But the not within 2" of an enemy seems strange to me. Maybe so you can't block vehicle access points or use 2 to trap a vehicle?
    The meat things seek to destroy ourselves. They hunt us as we hunt them but they are weak and uncertain. Bring them understanding of the power of ourselves through our strength and their fear. The inferior flesh will be entirely destroyed, all fragments will be smashed. Ourselves will fight to the last, all weak flesh must be consumed

  4. #3
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    I don't understand your comment that this goes against RAW. It was always pretty clear IMO.

  5. #4
    Member Vinsklortho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by God45 View Post
    I don't understand your comment that this goes against RAW. It was always pretty clear IMO.
    Beastmaster packs are a Dark Eldar unit with the Power from Pain rule. Each pain token "confers a special rule to the entire unit". Unlike Harlequins where the controversy was whether pain tokens could benefit a unit that did not have Power from Pain, the Beastmaster unit had models with the Power from Pain rule and was therefore "a Dark Eldar unit with [Power from Pain]".
    League Stats: Orks 4W-1L-1T, CSM 4W-2L-0T, Dark Eldar 10W-6L-4T, Tau 3W-1L-1T, Blood Angels 4W-1L-1T, Imperial Guard 2W-1L-0T
    Tourney Stats: Blood Angels 6W-0L-0T, Dark Eldar 2W-1L-0T

  6. #5
    Orks_n_Bugs Bugs_n_Orks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by God45 View Post
    I don't understand your comment that this goes against RAW. It was always pretty clear IMO.
    The PfP rule states quite clearly that "Each pain token confers a special rule to the entire unit". All throughout the rule it is said to affect things on the unit level, not the model level. So the FAQ stating that only models with PfP gain the benefits of pain tokens is very much against the RAW in the codex.

    An example of a similar situation that was FAQed in the other direction is for the 'Stealth' rule. In the rulebook it also is described as affecting things at the unit level, and it was FAQed that in a mixed unit where some have the rule and others do not the entire unit gets the bonus. While logically it makes no sense to me that if one model in a 10 man unit has camoflage then suddenly the enemy has a hard time seeing the other 9 guys, this FAQ ruling does follow the RAW.
    The meat things seek to destroy ourselves. They hunt us as we hunt them but they are weak and uncertain. Bring them understanding of the power of ourselves through our strength and their fear. The inferior flesh will be entirely destroyed, all fragments will be smashed. Ourselves will fight to the last, all weak flesh must be consumed

  7. #6
    Son of LO Heirodule's Avatar
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    My good man i feel your pain in a very strong way. This sure as hell isnt the first time GW has done this, the exact same thing happend with the Nids. The codex was ballanced, then GW decided that actually if you're in a small metal box, you can use the warp better. Somehow. In other words they took a perfectly fine RAW concept in shadows in the warp, and smacked it in the face for a Nerf-home run, combining our biggest weakness with awsome pyschic powers. Not to mention the fact a small pile of rocks can apparently save your soul from being stolen

    Anyway aside from de-railing it bloody sucks its happened to you guys too... on the plus side youve still got a strong dex. Just GW just doing their thing it seems
    Your friendly neighbourhood gargantuan creature

  8. #7
    Member Vinsklortho's Avatar
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    Buffs:
    Torment Grenade Launcher(now affects fearless units)
    Power from Pain(units destroyed by any method gives a pain token which could mean that deep strike mishaps and blocking transports could give pain tokens)
    Power from Pain(killing ICs in a unit grants 2 pain tokens even though our store was already playing this way)
    Void Mine(can be dropped while going flat out and the mine doesn't affect weapons in shooting)
    Duke Sliscus(no longer required to buy a Warrior/Trueborn unit in order to field him)

    Nerfs:
    Asdrubael Vect's Orbs(minor nerf as i doubt many people gave Vect back wounds when the wounds he caused were saved)
    Webway Portal(minor nerf, but more of a clarification preventing a WWP from imprisoning a unit even though 1" would be more reasonable)
    Power from Pain(mixed units only get some models benefitting from PfP which decimates Beastmaster packs)
    Cronos Parasite Engine(can't give out pain tokens for destroying vehicles which is a minor nerf as it is a rare situation and I doubt many people used Cronos in such a way)
    Implosion Missile(lost their "hit allocation shenanigans" in that they actually are treated similar to causing wounds now which is a pretty big nerf)
    Vect's Orbs/Orbs of Despair(can no longer instant death models it doubles the toughness of and uses the enemy's Ld when determinging Instant Death)
    Dais of Destruction(no upgrades allowed)

    These changes will probably change the DE metagame a bit.

    Now that beasts will never get Feel No Pain they have lost a lot of durability which was one of their stronger perks when coupled with wound allocation. Beasts never being able to get Furious Charge makes them less deadly in the latter parts of the game. Beasts never getting Fearless means they will constantly be vulnerable to pinning/tank shocks/swept in close combat which severely hurts the unit's ability to act as a late game tarpit when coupled with no Feel No Pain. Beasts will probably go from an amazing unit to a merely decent unit.

    Voidraven Bombers may see more use as flat out bomb drops increases flexibility, but I doubt many people will pay the cost for the Implosion Missiles as one of the most attractive options(at least to me) was being able to snipe models in the unit.

    Webway Portal armies may see a decrease as the number two WWP assault unit(Beastmasters) took a huge hit and one of the most reliable WWP deploying units(IC in a Harlequin unit with Shadowseer) lost possible survivability in case they were spotted.

    Shooting based Dark Eldar armies may see an increase as blowing up transports(easier and less risky for shooting units) can possibly net multiple pain tokens. Also, shooting armies can more easily alpha strike first term forcing enemy units off of the board edge which considering the wording "entire unit is removed from the game and counts as destroyed" fits well with the wording of the Immaculate Destruction* which could net shooting units some free Feel No Pain, even though keeping track of which unit caused casualties to what unit in shooting and forced the morale test could be a nightmare. I'm not sure who would gain the pain token in that case: the last unit to fire at the unit taking the test, the unit which first caused the 25% casualties, or randomly determined** among FNP units.

    Reavers may see an increase in use due to causing possible morale tests in the movement phase(easy pain token!) or the risky turbo boost that puts them right behind a unit in some sort of U shaped formation resulting in that units death and a possible pain token from the Trapped! rule. I wonder if the Reavers would get the pain token if they set up the assist in the shooting phase which wiped out the unit.

    As pissed as I am about the loss of Beastmaster packs, I might say I'm almost happy in some ways for this FAQ as this whole Immaculate Destruction thing leads itself to some really creative interpretation. If any of you feel bad about using rules in such a way just remember that ATSKNF just got buffed by 3" and therefore you don't have to take crap from anybody***.



    *Q: If a unit with the Power from Pain special rule destroys
    an enemy unit, does it gain a pain token no matter how the
    unit was destroyed? For example the resultant explosion
    from shooting at a vehicle wipes out an enemy unit. (p25)
    A: Yes.

    **I'm unsure at this one as the example in the book almost explicitly lists close combat as the way randomizing would happen.

    ***and by anybody I mean Space Marine players.
    League Stats: Orks 4W-1L-1T, CSM 4W-2L-0T, Dark Eldar 10W-6L-4T, Tau 3W-1L-1T, Blood Angels 4W-1L-1T, Imperial Guard 2W-1L-0T
    Tourney Stats: Blood Angels 6W-0L-0T, Dark Eldar 2W-1L-0T

  9. #8
    Member Vinsklortho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heirodule View Post
    My good man i feel your pain in a very strong way. This sure as hell isnt the first time GW has done this, the exact same thing happend with the Nids. The codex was ballanced, then GW decided that actually if you're in a small metal box, you can use the warp better. Somehow. In other words they took a perfectly fine RAW concept in shadows in the warp, and smacked it in the face for a Nerf-home run, combining our biggest weakness with awsome pyschic powers. Not to mention the fact a small pile of rocks can apparently save your soul from being stolen

    Anyway aside from de-railing it bloody sucks its happened to you guys too... on the plus side youve still got a strong dex. Just GW just doing their thing it seems
    I truly feel for you guys. I love Tyranids and would like to start them someday, but how bad they seem to get hurt by vehicle spam is most unfortunate. It definitely doesn't help that the most recent codex(ours) turns Dark Eldar vs Tyranid battles into The Commorragh Splinter Cannon Massacre.
    League Stats: Orks 4W-1L-1T, CSM 4W-2L-0T, Dark Eldar 10W-6L-4T, Tau 3W-1L-1T, Blood Angels 4W-1L-1T, Imperial Guard 2W-1L-0T
    Tourney Stats: Blood Angels 6W-0L-0T, Dark Eldar 2W-1L-0T

  10. #9
    Slave to the flesh The_Outsider's Avatar
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    This just in: people didn't read the rules before codex, now FaQ tells them what they should already know, people complain - more at 11.

    Seriously, most of the rulings are simply tidying up the loose edges of some of the rules - the PfP one is still following RaW. I myself would've preferred it conferring, but that isn't our call to make and nor is it the intent of the rule given this ruling. There is infact no "loss" of FnP/etc on mixed units as by RaW (before this FaQ) you could make an equally solid case either way, so essentially it was your own hosue rule that got nerfed.

    Vect's obsidian orbs is just people reading rules that simply aren't there - just because strength is the qualifier for instant death 99% of times doesn't make it true all the time, the orbs were clear from day 1.

    Same for the Dais, people got all uppity because they wanted upgrades on it, nowhere does the Dais entry or the raider entry on page 44 mention upgrades at all, people just get creative with their reading.
    Last edited by The_Outsider; January 15th, 2011 at 01:38. Reason: more typos than any post has any right to have

  11. #10
    Senior Member Archon Charybdis's Avatar
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    The sky is not falling. Beast masters are still an excellent unit, and I'm looking forward to getting their new models when they come out. They don't need FnP and Furious Charge to be effective. The ability to play musical wounds with invuln saves on khymera, large numbers of wounds on razorwings, and high T on clawed fiends still makes them plenty resilient and more than capable of killing plenty of things, especially out of a WWP.

    You're talking about the army as if it's been gutted by clarifying one ambiguous rule that, as far as I can tell, most people weren't taking advantage of anyway. I even argued that as written pain tokens would benefit Harlequins and Beasts, but let's be serious, it was still evident that they probably hadn't intend it that way. If they had, they would have given beasts and harlies PfP in the first place.

    And honestly, PfP aside, many of these supposed nerfs aren't really rules changes as much as clarifications to prevent people trying to weasel out minor advantages. Things like dropping a WWP on enemy units to trap them in impassable terrain, or the Cronos handing out pain tokens from vehicles while PfP explicitly says non-vehicle units. Vect's orbs only causing ID on low LD enemies shouldn't be a surprise, the Neural Shredder was already ruled to work that way.

    Yes, the ATSKNF change is pretty stupid. DE are still a highly competitive codex that should mop the floor with your average blue book army.

    Edit: Grr! Scooped by Outsider

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