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Let's talk about Rangers. From MWG.comOkay so the general structure of these threads is to address our BAD units first, then move on to the better ones. Please always read every post to avoid repetition. Please also try to discuss only the unit in question specificly. Referencing other units is OK, but should be limited to times when the other unit directly overlaps the target unit of this thread. Please do not adjust the units points cost. Let's bring our boys UP TO the points we're being charged, rather than lower them for the benefit of more units elsewhere. We're an elite army, right? Let's be expensive and ridiculously deadly, then.
These threads will work in two stages. First we brainstorm about the flaws as we perceive them, and provide a wide list of changes as we feel is appropriate. Phase two is taking the most supported ideas, compiling them together and finally arguing over any critical additions to the changelist.Now I use rangers already and don't consider them to be "that terrible" but a lot of other players I see call them outright worthless.Pros & Cons
+ BS of 4
+ Powerful Ranger Long Rifle
+ Fleet of Foot
+ Move Through Cover
+ +1 to all cover saves
+ Powerful Pathfinder upgrade
- Weak armour saves
- Vulnerable to template weapons, close combat and fast moving infantry
- Heavy weapons means you have very little mobility once you have deployed
Why is this? Yea sure they're expensive but let's talk about what would make them worth 19/24pts instead of just demanding they get cheaper. Cheap troops that are useless are are just cheap and useless, not suddenly worthwhile, afterall.
I'm really gonna need other people to kick this off because personally I don't think they're that bad.
Well you pretty much hit the nail on the head really. The are not bad, they are far from bad, just over priced. The AP1 ability makes them very useful and the bonus to cover saves makes them fairly durable until a flamer comes along and incinerates them. They do cost more than banshees, striking scorpions, Fire Dragons and the basic Harelquin before you even upgrade them to Path finders which then makes them more expensive than warp spiders and Swooping hawks as well...
A full squad of pathfinders costs more than most things in the entire codex. Falling behind on fully upgraded squads of Harelquins and a basic full squad of warlocks, and thats about it really. For the points they are just too easily killed and since they can't move and shoot they lack mobility.
Possible cures to make them worth the points they are now?
Wounding on a 3+ rather than a 4+.
Give them the Relentless special rule.
Just for fun let them be able to take a wave serpent, at least then you can take another tank just to annoy your opponent. Tank Roulette anyone? Cause you know your never really gonna put them in the tank.
2D6 against vehicles and any 6s you roll add rending scores, even if you took away the strength value of the gun this would be better. You roll a double 6, POW! two rending hits a possible over all armour penetration of 18 if you roll well for rending bonus.
- +4 reg armor as I think most Eldar should have 4+ minium saves ... yes even guardians IMO
- ALL BS5. They are Eldar + snipers = BS 5
- Relentless is a must have.
- Add Farseer Mcleod's tank busting rules, I love 2d6 pen on tanks with rending on ether Die, not sure about an AP1 on top of that.
Give them different ammo like some other units and assassin type units.
1 for tanks
1 for picking out a target in a unit
1 for MCs
1 basic type shot they all ready have.
Edit: of course this would make the base ranger like 15pts and you would have to pay extra depending on which ammo you choose.
Last edited by designer891; January 22nd, 2011 at 01:54.
Well the main problem I have with them is that they're essentially Guardian statlines with BS4. I would like to see them more specialised in the statlines, which I suppose mainly comes down to what designer said, give them 4+ armour saves and BS5. They would also be much better if they could pick out units like Vindicare assassins. Basically, what needs to be done is essentially make them another Aspect in the sense that they should be very good at what they do but not at anything else. They would be better if they had the Pathfinder abilities by default rather than having to take it as an upgrade. And yeah, it would be cool if they could do at least something against vehicles.
I agree with everyone. Space marine scouts are only 2 points less than a standard marine (1 point more to give them camo cloaks) why should Eldar be any different. And the fact that they are scouts that you have to pay to give them the scouts rule makes no sense.
For their price now, an Upgrade to pathfinder should give you relentless, and 2d6 armor pen. That would be fine.
Kendo's DA's, Eldar, and stuff WIP
Dark Angels: W-22 D-4 L-5 High Elves W-8 L-1
This is a tough one for me to answer. I use Pathfinders religiously. I don't think an increase in armour is going to make a difference, they should be behind cover which will be giving them a 2+ anyway.
About the only thing I could see is increasing their WS by 1, and giving them a close combat weapon for CC defence, or maybe giving the squad an upgrade that allows a wound to be direct at any target.
Honestly They are more a distraction for your enemy then anything I have NEVER made their points back with their fire power alone.
If every unit in a game could 'earn its points back through firepower' then I'd wager most games would be over in a 2 turns. It's endemic to the IG codex.. their shit is just too efficient. Most other codeci are bordering towards 50-70% efficiency which is the only way to prolong a game for 6 turns. From what I see anyway.
Well, what about Fire Dragons, to use one example? They usually pay off 100% of their points cost if not more in a game. Same with almost every other unit I can think of. Obviously that's why balanced games with similar powered lists are the most fun.
On a side note, 'codeci' is an interesting pluralisation. Never seen that one before.
Firedragons are the oddball unit in the eldar codex. That's why they're pretty much mandatory, because they're the only guys we have who more or less are worth what we pay.
Also codeci should really be codeces but it's latin so wgaf.