Unit to accompany melee based Archon - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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View Poll Results: What unit to accompany melee Archon

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  • 9 Bloodbrides fully upgrades + Syren + Raider (approx 230 pts)

    4 33.33%
  • 9 Incubi not upgraded + Raider (approx 260 pts)

    3 25.00%
  • 4 Incubi not upgraded + Venom with SC (approx 155 pts)

    5 41.67%
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  1. #1
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    Unit to accompany melee based Archon

    Ok so ive decided to take an Archon with the usual shadow field, blast pistol and either agonizer or huskblade.

    I figure i need a unit to accompany him so ive got 3 choices:

    9 Bloodbrides including 3 upgrades and a Syren with grenade launcher and power weapon / agonizer. Mounted in a raider.

    9 Incubi with no upgrades mounted in a raider.

    4 Incubi mounted in a Venom with splinter cannon upgrade.

    Please explain your reasoning.

    Edit: Given that in order to make a kick-ass Archon usually costs 170+ points in this setup it might be worth using Lilith instead. Discuss.

    Last edited by Alessa Athorn; January 28th, 2011 at 18:11.

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  3. #2
    Age
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    If your archon is going with a melee unit, he probably doesn't need that blast pistol, the unit doesn't do anything to compliment his 1-shot anti-tank capability. Also, if he's firing it, you're missing out on fleeting, which you don't really want to do!

    The bloodbrides will be better at keeping him alive if you take shardnets, but otherwise the incubi are more likely to kill more on the charge (which may not be so good, as you'll want to be in combat in your opponents turn too, so as not to be exposed to fire).
    If I've replied, i've probably used Italics...

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    With my common opponents being fearless im not too worried about the unit killing the squad in 1 turn and leaving themselves open to being shot.

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    Slave to the flesh The_Outsider's Avatar
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    9 Incubi is total madness as they will utterly demolish 90% of units in a single turn, leaving said archon high and dry for getting shot at.

    However, incubi don't matter at all here - a huskblade archon gets more service out of bloodbrydes (who should be 9 strong) as bloodbrydes can take on the sort of models the huskblade is designed to kill, while the incubi cannot. As for the wych weapons do what you like really, the difference between all three options is tiny in real terms (I run two hydra gauntlets and one razorflails, but that is just preference).

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Outsider View Post
    9 Incubi is total madness as they will utterly demolish 90% of units in a single turn, leaving said archon high and dry for getting shot at.

    However, incubi don't matter at all here - a huskblade archon gets more service out of bloodbrydes (who should be 9 strong) as bloodbrydes can take on the sort of models the huskblade is designed to kill, while the incubi cannot. As for the wych weapons do what you like really, the difference between all three options is tiny in real terms (I run two hydra gauntlets and one razorflails, but that is just preference).
    Please can you explain why the Incubi wouldnt be as good as the Bloodbrides against multi wound, probably fairly high toughness, units. Im fairly new to close combat as a whole.

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    Age
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    Basically, even though it seems awesome to destroy a unit the turn you charge, this is a hideously bad idea - once you've destroyed them your 'uber-unit' is left out in the open and will die horribly to retaliatory fire. What everyone really wants for assaulting is a unit that lasts exactly 2 rounds of combat, yours and then your opponents.

    Vs. power weapons and the like (and there will be power weapons), bloodbrides and wyches are... ooh... 100% more survivable than incubi. You need that survivability and balance between killing power (delivered by your archon and the squad leader) to achieve the 2-round combat, in the 2nd round of which you crush your enemies and see them driven before you (lamentation of women etc.), freeing you up to charge a new target in your following turn!
    If I've replied, i've probably used Italics...

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    Slave to the flesh The_Outsider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alessa Athorn View Post
    Please can you explain why the Incubi wouldnt be as good as the Bloodbrides against multi wound, probably fairly high toughness, units. Im fairly new to close combat as a whole.
    Basically what Age said, but to expand a bit further, incubi get their killing power from denying armour but at S4 will struggle to wound monstrous creatures (perfect targets for the huskblade) and most independant characters will strike at the same time as the incubi, meaning if the archon failed to kill them your incubi will probably get butchered and that is going to suck.

    Wyches and bloodbrydes on the other hand hide behind their 4+ invulnerable save, I6 and - this is the important part - agoniser on the squad leader. This translates to that if the archon doesn't kill his target the syren will probably deal 2 wounds to it (probably before it strikes), add in another wound from ther bloodbrydes and you'll have seriously hurt any monstrous creature in the game with very few exceptions.

    In turn you'll probably only lose 2 bloodbrydes on average, meaning you can win combat against the thing (but since the majority of monstrous creatures have a 3+ armour they won't care about no retreat) and thus stayed locked in for another round, where you probably will kill it, give you all the advantages with very few downsides.

    The other vulnerable common target for the huskblade are independant characters - and 99% of them are I5 and come with power weapons. This means again, should the archon be unable to kill them (they could be immune to instant death) the bloodbrydes will strike before them and should deal a wound for two. This makes it unlikely for the majority of independant characters to win combat. Again they probably won't care about no retreat.

    Make no mistake incubi rock socks hard, but they have weaknesses that an incorrectly equipped archon (assuming he is rolling with them) will not cover. This is mainly why when you see an archon and incubi the archon will hve an agaoniser - he acts as a super squad leader for the incubi (covering their weakness of dealing with T5+) and the incubi protect him from his weakness (mass return attacks).

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    Senior Member Archon Charybdis's Avatar
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    Age and Outsider covered it pretty well already, but the crux of it is that Incubi are more or less tailor made to cut through MEQs and TEQs (sans SS), who rely specifically on good armor saves to protect them. Incubi are fast but not too fast, they have a good but not crazy number of attacks, and they're strong but not that strong. They're just above average enough to shred your standard MEQs/TEQs, but don't have the killing power or survivability to slug it out with multi-wound models or units with good invuln saves.

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    Getting some good feedback here. Seems people think that the Bloodbrides would be better than the Incubi which is fair enough. Strange how the option winning the poll is 4 Incubi in a venom...

  11. #10
    jboweruk
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    Suggest give your archon the Webway portal too, especially if you're dumping him in the Raider, that way he and the Wyches can keep a few enemy away from the portal during his turn tying up units until your own forces in reserve plunge out of the webway and straight into very dirty melee. If it works right you could find your opponent wishing he'd never taken on the DE army...

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