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View Poll Results: Which do you feel is the more competitive option?

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  • 4 Grotesques w/ Haemonculi in Raider

    2 11.11%
  • 6 Incubi w/ Haemonculi in Raider

    16 88.89%
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  1. #1
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    Which is the more competitive option?

    So I have been sitting around thinking about which is the better option for my army and I'm torn on this decision: 6 Incubi or 4 Grotesques. In both of these scenarios I'm going to be adding in a Haemonculi and attaching them in a raider for CC assault.

    So here's the pro's and cons I see:
    Incubi:

    Higher I
    Power weapons to ignore armor saves
    3+ armor saves
    More likely to win attack on first turn

    Grotesques
    Can hurt vehicles
    Higher survivability (vs S6-9 weapons), and
    Multiple wounds great for prolonged combat

    What do you think? Which one will be more competitive for all around play?

    Last edited by mrvegas; February 10th, 2011 at 15:08.

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  3. #2
    Member sujaka's Avatar
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    I think you should get both, but 6 incubi just too many. I'd say 3 Incubi with haemonculi and Archon in venom, that is powerful enough.
    Thou should not play frisbee with a shield drone

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    Member Archon Anastari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sujaka View Post
    I think you should get both, but 6 incubi just too many. I'd say 3 Incubi with haemonculi and Archon in venom, that is powerful enough.
    I dont think 6 is too much... 6 compensates for bad dice rolls... it compensates for the fact that your probably not going to be going first cause of lack of plasma grenades charging into cover.... and allows to squad to keep on going even after it sustains a few casualties.

    Back to the main topic... I would have voted for grotesques if the set up was 3 with all the upgrades with wound allocation and two unique haemonculi so u start off with fearless. Without fearless they arnt that tough to beat... a couple of simple tank shocks could screw them and as for combat if u lose combat by even just one you'll be taking moral tests on ld7 which means theres a fair chance you'll break and run which is doom.
    Last edited by Archon Anastari; February 10th, 2011 at 17:20.

  5. #4
    Archite of Caerbannog KwiKwag's Avatar
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    I've played with the 4 grotesques with liquifier and abberition w/gauntlet accompanied by Urien and I find the squad, ok. However, just ok from an expensive unit like that makes me uneasy. You may be getting the furious charge with your haemy attached but the lack of a hard hitting, armor ignoring attack makes them unpredictable in CC. Now the whole lack of plasma plagues both choices the one thing that the Grotesques have over the Incubi is the liquifier and having 2 of them vs. having just 1 is a huge advantage, killing marines with a shooting attack is more efficient than trying to cc them.

    As for the Incubi, they may not be as tough and easier to wound but then the armor save and FnP really equalizes that in my eyes. I too think 6 is too many however I wouldn't go any lower than 5 if you are coupling them with a Haemy. Hitting things on 3+ and wounding on 4+ (on average) is pretty sweet so definitely a good contender to the grotesques as they tend to die to the same things.

    So it is a tough call, one that for comes down to non-logical decision that for me comes down to theme and the "flavor of the week" - I just finished my incubi and do not really have a model for the grotesques so I would abnormally give the incubi the nod (but I do love grotesques!).
    "On a hunch, I melted them down and inhaled the fumes and read the dark eldar codex again, AND FOUND A BUNCH OF NEW RULES HIDDEN BEHIND THE OTHER WORDS..." [Gardeth on modelling & interpreting the DE Codex]

  6. #5
    LO Zealot goldenS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KwiKwag View Post
    I've played with the 4 grotesques with liquifier and abberition w/gauntlet accompanied by Urien and I find the squad, ok. However, just ok from an expensive unit like that makes me uneasy. You may be getting the furious charge with your haemy attached but the lack of a hard hitting, armor ignoring attack makes them unpredictable in CC. Now the whole lack of plasma plagues both choices the one thing that the Grotesques have over the Incubi is the liquifier and having 2 of them vs. having just 1 is a huge advantage, killing marines with a shooting attack is more efficient than trying to cc them.

    As for the Incubi, they may not be as tough and easier to wound but then the armor save and FnP really equalizes that in my eyes. I too think 6 is too many however I wouldn't go any lower than 5 if you are coupling them with a Haemy. Hitting things on 3+ and wounding on 4+ (on average) is pretty sweet so definitely a good contender to the grotesques as they tend to die to the same things.

    So it is a tough call, one that for comes down to non-logical decision that for me comes down to theme and the "flavor of the week" - I just finished my incubi and do not really have a model for the grotesques so I would abnormally give the incubi the nod (but I do love grotesques!).
    Incubi are better, bacause, if you see a large squad of say assualt marines, then they will remove the treat! grotesques will still do damage. 6 incubi is enough because this way you can claim the second turn pain token! this way you still get the pain token, but your opponent does not get to shoot you up in his turn! this way more of your Incubi survive the battle!

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    here is another big thing to remember on the grotesques. Against opponents with power weapons or AP1,2 weapons grotesques are significantly better since there will be no armor saves or FnP

  8. #7
    Slave to the flesh The_Outsider's Avatar
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    Christ competitive is such a loaded term it literally has no meaning.

    However, for which is better? Grotesques all day baby.

    Why? Incubi have a couple weaknesses that means they can be directly hard countered unless they have an archon or other, similiar character with them. A haemonculous is a total dead weight for incubi as they'll generate pain tokens like virtually nothing else in the codex and starting with one leads to taking foolish risks.

    The grotesques however are an all purpose "bruiser" style unit - all other of these type units in the game have serious issues with getting into assault (or for the one that comes with wings, astronomical cost when kitted out) which a raider nicely gets around.

    Plus who is going to easily munch through 12 T5 feel no pain wounds? Not many units are capable of doing that easily and most that are are the ones that you wil lbe shooting as if grotesques cannot take it on not much else in the DE codex will (beastmasters will due to the possibility of huge units).

  9. #8
    Member Archon Anastari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Outsider View Post
    Christ competitive is such a loaded term it literally has no meaning.

    However, for which is better? Grotesques all day baby.

    Why? Incubi have a couple weaknesses that means they can be directly hard countered unless they have an archon or other, similiar character with them. A haemonculous is a total dead weight for incubi as they'll generate pain tokens like virtually nothing else in the codex and starting with one leads to taking foolish risks.

    The grotesques however are an all purpose "bruiser" style unit - all other of these type units in the game have serious issues with getting into assault (or for the one that comes with wings, astronomical cost when kitted out) which a raider nicely gets around.

    Plus who is going to easily munch through 12 T5 feel no pain wounds? Not many units are capable of doing that easily and most that are are the ones that you wil lbe shooting as if grotesques cannot take it on not much else in the DE codex will (beastmasters will due to the possibility of huge units).
    The haemonculi is there to help compensate for the not having plasma grenades; feel no pain minimizing the damage u take when you charge(unless there power weapons or double toughness).

    They dont need to munch through your unit a couple of tank shocks and bye bye grots unless they have fearless or ld 10. Same weakness of beastpacks which is a massive crutch imo.

  10. #9
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    We are really making some good points but I wanted to discuss a few things to that I think are important to consider into the discussion.

    1) Why did I choose 6 incubi and why 4 grotesques. First of all because it's close to the same point cost. Secondly, it brings in a squad about 200 points which means it's enough to cause significant damage, but not enough to limit what else you can take in your army.

    2) Lets look at 4 grotesques assaulting 10 normal space marines in cover
    Given that SM attack first because they are in cover:
    10 attacks, 5 hits, 1.6666 cause wounds, Just under 1 wound on grotesques
    16 Grotesques attacks + 3 attacks from haemonculus (w venom blade)
    19 attacks, 9.5 hits, 7.91 cause wounds, 2.63 dead SM

    vs
    Incubi
    SM 10 attacks, 3.33 hits, 2.22wounds caused, .37 wounds taken
    18 Incubi attacks +3 attacks from haemonculus w venom blade
    21 attacks, 13.5 hits, 6 no save wounds and .5 save wounds. Roughly equals 6 dead SM. (2nd turn will be a a complete victory with no reply from SM)

    Lessons learned-
    A- Incubi do considerably better at killing 3+ save armies (SM, Chaos, Sisters, etc)
    B- If enemy was something with 5+ Saves (Eldar, IG, Nids, etc) Grotesques kill about as good as Incubi. Especially against T3 multi-wound enemies
    C- Opponents with Power weapons can really hurt Incubi saves
    D- Grotesques only killed 2.63 SM and took 1 wound which means luck plays a bigger factor in determining who will win the fight.


    3) Now lets look at what happens when both are shot at by 20 bolter shots:
    Incubi- 20 shots, 13.333 hits, 8.888 wounds caused, 1.48 wounds taken
    Grotesques- 20 shots, 13.333 hits, 4.444 wounds caused, 2.222 wounds taken

    Lessons learned-
    A- Against weapons with AP4 or worse Incubi save easier but ultimately loose out more because they have only 1 wound.
    B- Against weapons with AP1-3 Incubi don't stand a chance

    4) Equipping Options of Incubi- Lets say after your building your army you have 25-30 spare points. Who provides the best upgrade potential
    A- Additional Incubi (probably best option for Incubi)
    B- Incubi get Klaivex and Murderous Assault
    C- Incubi get Klaivex and Bloodstone

    Now lets look at Grotesques options
    A- Liquifier gun for both the Grotesque & Haemonculus (Probably the best 20 point spend)
    B- Aberration with Flesh Gauntlet (Allows you to reroll 4+ on low tough enemies thanks to poison)
    C- Aberration with Venom Blade and 1 Haemonculus with Liquifier gun
    D- Upgrade to Haemonculus Ancient (This could be used for Incubus as well but the benefit is greater with Grotesques for LD tests and Beserk Rampage rule)
    Last edited by mrvegas; February 11th, 2011 at 12:33.

  11. #10
    Slave to the flesh The_Outsider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archon Anastari View Post
    The haemonculi is there to help compensate for the not having plasma grenades; feel no pain minimizing the damage u take when you charge(unless there power weapons or double toughness).
    No just no.

    A haemonculi will not provide the kind if support small squads of incubi require - he doesn't add the oomph required to deal with anything over T4 and nor does he provide grenades.

    What haemonculi and incubi is is basically a retarded way of dealing with a problem by hotfixing it as opposed to directly dealing with the underlying issue.

    They dont need to munch through your unit a couple of tank shocks and bye bye grots unless they have fearless or ld 10. Same weakness of beastpacks which is a massive crutch imo.

    Say what? Incubi and hameonculi are only LD8 as well.

    No, grotesques are the better option with haemonculi because they need a character to be "safe" as well as get a significantly higher usage of power from pain.

    While you could argue that a phantasm grenade launcher is what grotesques need, but they have the statline to tank damage should they assault into cover - incubi do not.

    If you are wasting the incubi's I5 (exception: drazhar) then frankly you are doing it wrong.

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