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Thread: DE Massacre

  1. #1
    Member Krakev's Avatar
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    DE Massacre

    I've been playing in my first set of competitive games (despite been a keen hobbyist since 1988 ) at my local GW.

    I've had mixed fortunes running the following list:

    Hive Tyrant w/ Adrenal Glands, Hive Commander, Leech & Parox.
    2 x Tyrant Guard

    2 x Zoanthrope
    1 x Lictor
    12 x Ygmarl Genestealers

    12 x Genestealers w/ Adrenal Glands
    20 x Hormagaunts w/ Toxin Sacs
    20 x Termagants

    Trygon Prime w/ Adrenal Glands

    Tot - 1500

    I've drawn games against another 'nid player and a Witch Hunter, beat Space Wolves and Necron (although I don't count that as the fella didn't understand his army, a rematch is on the cards) and Chaos Marines. So far I've lost 2 games, one to Renegade IG, very nice army and a well deserved victory, but what concerns me is the most recent game I had against the Dark Eldar.

    I remember there was Hesperax, an Archon, 2 lots of 10+ Wyches, 3 lots of 10+ Caballites, 1 in a Raider/Ravager.

    I made the mistake of infiltrating my normal 'stealers at the beinning of the game (without having the first turn) in the hopes that this would throw his plan, anticipating that these units would outflank. This didn't work and the 'stealers fell in a single round of shooting from 2 units.

    I just could not seem to get a foothold with anything at all, my hormagaunts were ripped apart in a single round of combat, Hive Tyrant and Guard fell to Wyches and Archon.

    The other band of Wyches with Lelith ran rampant through my Termagants, Zoanthropes and then secured an objective.

    Trygon arrived and took down a couple of Caballites and was then shredded in a single round of shooting.

    I suspect a small amount of over-exaggeration on the number of shots and attacks that his units were getting, but I don't know enough about DE to go pointing any fingers.

    Has anyone else suffered similar results, or even a reversal of my fortunes?

    I don't really want to tweak my army to make them more effective against a particular opponent as I don't think this is in the best interests of the game, but I'd be interested in any comments about tactics to counter IG and DE armies.


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  3. #2
    I am a free man! number6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krakev View Post
    I don't really want to tweak my army to make them more effective against a particular opponent as I don't think this is in the best interests of the game, but I'd be interested in any comments about tactics to counter IG and DE armies.
    Given your list I'm surprised you're winning as many games as you are! It's a random mishmash of units that doesn't cohere. And it's all about the Assault phase. For all intents and purposes, 4 MEQ wounds of short-ranged Zoanthropes is nothing for shooting. You have NO SHOOTING PHASE whatsoever.

    You will continue to lose as your opponents get wiser and build better lists.

    And there is no way, no way AT ALL, you can compete with DE unless you can shoot them down.

    You could really use a Tyrannofex. You could really use harpies. Some hive guard would come in extremely handy.

    A CC Tryant, 2 units of stealers, hormagaunts, and a Trygon. This is WAY too much in the assault phase. At least half of that needs to get chucked out the window so you can make a list that is balanced.
    ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
    RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014

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    Member Mads's Avatar
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    That said, in my own meager experience, Eldar and Dark Eldar can be rather obnoxious in terms of shooting volume even though they aren't a swarm army. Things like Fortune and Doom can really make things even hairier, and with Dark Eldar, all our T6 creatures get wounded by their Poison all the same.
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    Member Krakev's Avatar
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    DE Massacre

    Quote Originally Posted by number6 View Post
    Given your list I'm surprised you're winning as many games as you are! It's a random mishmash of units that doesn't cohere. And it's all about the Assault phase. For all intents and purposes, 4 MEQ wounds of short-ranged Zoanthropes is nothing for shooting. You have NO SHOOTING PHASE whatsoever.

    You will continue to lose as your opponents get wiser and build better lists.

    And there is no way, no way AT ALL, you can compete with DE unless you can shoot them down.

    You could really use a Tyrannofex. You could really use harpies. Some hive guard would come in extremely handy.

    A CC Tryant, 2 units of stealers, hormagaunts, and a Trygon. This is WAY too much in the assault phase. At least half of that needs to get chucked out the window so you can make a list that is balanced.
    Well... I appreciate the comments, but the campaign was dubbed 'Submit an army list for the entire campaign before game 1 and then don't change it'. This hasn't strictly been followed, but I sat and thought about how I was going to cause the most damage with the models I have.

    On top of what is listed I have:

    1 x Lictor
    2 x Hive Guard
    1 x Biovore
    Lots x Spore Mines
    3 x Carnifex (Unbuilt, but planning on magnetising so weapon options will be interchangable)
    9 x Tyranid Warriors, pretty much same as 'fexes.
    1 x Tyranid Prime (50% completed conversion)
    8 x Hormagaunts
    8 x Termagants
    16 x Genestealers

    My Trygon is magnetised, so can drop to a standard or Mawloc if needed.

    Based on the spares I've got, what would you take out and put in to balance the army?

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    Senior Member TamCoan's Avatar
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    As #6 said, you have no shooting. I've seen similiar builds get mauled in my area by the end of turn two. My rule of thumb is that 50-70% of my list MUST be able to have effective shooting. (And often our shooting units are still just as good in melee.)
    I'd look into the following:
    1) Hive guard. 2 S8, 24" shots that require no line of sight.
    2) Tyranofex. Hands down our best long range shooter. While expensive, it makes your opponents nervous and prevents them from sitting outside of range.
    3) Zoanthropes, perhaps in a pod.
    4) Harpy.
    5) Shooting warriors.
    6) Tervigon with gaunts.
    7) gaunts with glands.

  7. #6
    I am a free man! number6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krakev View Post
    Well... I appreciate the comments, but the campaign was dubbed 'Submit an army list for the entire campaign before game 1 and then don't change it'. This hasn't strictly been followed, but I sat and thought about how I was going to cause the most damage with the models I have.

    On top of what is listed I have:

    1 x Lictor
    2 x Hive Guard
    1 x Biovore
    Lots x Spore Mines
    3 x Carnifex (Unbuilt, but planning on magnetising so weapon options will be interchangable)
    9 x Tyranid Warriors, pretty much same as 'fexes.
    1 x Tyranid Prime (50% completed conversion)
    8 x Hormagaunts
    8 x Termagants
    16 x Genestealers

    My Trygon is magnetised, so can drop to a standard or Mawloc if needed.

    Based on the spares I've got, what would you take out and put in to balance the army?
    Based on your model collection, you don't have a balanced army build anywhere in there. Which is sad, seeing as you have well over 2000 points of models. So many genestealers and no Broodlords, too. Criminal!

    So ... not much you can do. Unless you're willing to convert your (hopefully fully unbuilt) Carnifexes, and you continue to play games around the 1500 pts level.

    In which case I'd convert 2 carnifexes into harpies and the 3rd one into a tyrannofex. These models must be included in every army you make. You don't have any other ranged threats, otherwise.

    And I'd probaby run something like the following.

    HQ
    [95 pts] Prime, bonesword/lash whip, devourer

    Elite
    [100 pts] 2 Hive Guard
    [120 pts] 2 Zoanthropes

    Troop
    [195 pts] 4 Warriors, bonesword/lash whip, 3x devourer, 1x venom cannon
    [112 pts] 14 Hormagaunts, toxin sacs
    [112 pts] 14 Hormagaunts, toxin sacs
    [112 pts] 8 Genestealers

    Fast Attack
    [170 pts] Harpy, cluster spines, twin-linked heavy venom cannon
    [170 pts] Harpy, cluster spines, twin-linked heavy venom cannon

    Heavy Support
    [265 pts] Tyrannofex, cluster spines, rupture cannon, desiccator larvae
    [45 pts] Biovore

    Total: 1496 pts

    Attach the prime to either the hive guard or the zoanthropes to catch bullets. (And as often as I recommend they should go with zoeys, in this list I believe the hive guard are more deserving.) You can break the Prime off for an assault when the time and opportunity arises. Outflank the stealer, run the army forward. All of it. The Warriors escort the Tfex around. Whatever you do, don't join the Prime to the Warriors. You need to keep your Synapse distributed. And it's also helpful to keep the bonesword/lash whip threats distributed as well.
    ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
    RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014

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    Member Krakev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by number6 View Post
    So many genestealers and no Broodlords, too. Criminal!
    Apologies, there is a Broodlord on a shelf somewhere, forgot about him as I used to use him extensively in 4th Ed. This time round he seems way too expensive and doesn't count as an HQ choice.

    I used to run an all 'stealer army in 4th Ed. hence why so many 'stealer models.

    I disagree with your use of Harpy's, TL HVC'c are nice, but I've always found it better to try and stick to what your good at, and Tyranid aren't great at shooting.

    Would be interested to see the outcome of a game between your list and mine. Do you actually play Tyranid?
    Last edited by Krakev; February 17th, 2011 at 10:01.

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    I am a free man! number6's Avatar
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    Wow. The amount of FAIL in this post is rather amazing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakev View Post
    Apologies, there is a Broodlord on a shelf somewhere, forgot about him as I used to use him extensively in 4th Ed. This time round he seems way too expensive and doesn't count as an HQ choice.
    The Broodlord is virtually required for all stealer units. He is way worth the upgrade points. The fact that he's no longer an HQ choice makes him BETTER. In the above army list I provided, as much as you need the anti-infantry of the Biovore, I'd replace it with a Broodlord upgrade, THAT'S how good it is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakev
    I used to run an all 'stealer army in 4th Ed. hence why so many 'stealer models.
    One of the worst army builds out of any codex at all. Ugh.
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakev
    I disagree with your use of Harpy's, TL HVC'c are nice, but I've always found it better to try and stick to what your good at, and Tyranid aren't great at shooting.
    I just cried a little inside. Harpies aren't good?! Tyranids can't shoot?!

    You need help. But you clearly don't want to listen. Good luck to you! I've done all I can here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakev
    Would be interested to see the outcome of a game between your list and mine. Do you actually play Tyranid?
    ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
    RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014

  10. #9
    Son of LO Heirodule's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krakev View Post
    Tyranid aren't great at shooting.
    WHAT? This.... just have a think for a second.

    We have an elites choice in hive guard that packs the same kind of punch against tanks as a land speeder typhoon. Excpet it ignores cover, and doesnt need LOS. How is that not good at shooting? Our Zoanthropes pack THE HEAVIEST gun in the game. S10, AP1, Lance. At Bs 4. Thats not good shooting?

    Devilguants, 3 S4 shots each that have leadership modifiers? Biovores, long range artillery large blast S4 AP4? T-fexs, huge anti tank gun and nigh on unkillable, also able to put the hurt on infantry somewhat. Warriors can get formidible and lets not forget dakka-fexs and tyrants.

    Tyranids have some really great shooting units. Dont get me wrong, they assault well too, but you'll never win without shooting.
    Last edited by Heirodule; February 17th, 2011 at 21:00.
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    Member Krakev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heirodule View Post
    WHAT? This.... just have a think for a second.

    We have an elites choice in hive guard that packs the same kind of punch against tanks as a land speeder typhoon. Excpet it ignores cover, and doesnt need LOS. How is that not good at shooting? Our Zoanthropes pack THE HEAVIEST gun in the game. S10, AP1, Lance. At Bs 4. Thats not good shooting?

    Devilguants, 3 S4 shots each that have leadership modifiers? Biovores, long range artillery large blast S4 AP4? T-fexs, huge anti tank gun and nigh on unkillable, also able to put the hurt on infantry somewhat. Warriors can get formidible and lets not forget dakka-fexs and tyrants.

    Tyranids have some really great shooting units. Dont get me wrong, they assault well too, but you'll never win without shooting.
    Now that is a response that I can't argue with. I have tried games with Hive Guard and always come away thinking that for 100 points I could run another brood of gaunts and capture one more objective.

    Thing is #6 provides an army list that looks (in his opinion) good. I've provided an army list that is tried and tested against all but 2 or 3 40k armies. I'd like to see some evidence of these army lists being put to good use, because on paper anything can be made to look good. When it comes to playing games and reacting to how someone deals with your lineup, that is another thing entirely.

    Last 2 nights I've played games against vanilla marines with the original list posted at the top, won 1, lost 1. Game I won was objectives and I won simply by having a single troop sat on an objective, game I lost was victory points, my list gives away 9 points total compared to ? maybe 6 or 7.

    The whole point of this thread was to try and get an idea of what people use successfully against the likes of Dark Eldar and Imperial Guard other than loaded dice. :-)

    I'm not disputing the fact that Tyranid have some decent shooting options, I'm just saying that my experience had led me to keep my lists aligned to swarming and overpowering opponents in close combat with my zoanthropes and the lictor picking off any pesky tanks. The Hive Tyrant and Trygon are more than capable of handling themselves against Monoliths and Land Raiders (again, this has been proven over the past 6-7 weeks), so it is not like I am lacking anti-tank options.

    Devilgaunts are something I will certainly be looking at incorporating into the army, I've got 12 painted Spinegaunts that I need to rip the arms off of, as Spinegaunts are just a waste of points in 5th Ed. Should have Spinefists count as 2 CC weapons at least, otherwise they are pointless.

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