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I have a rather big tourney coming up, and I was thinking of using a variant of a list I had fielded before (with some tweaks), but am not opposed to a scratch list either. That being said, I have 2 types of lists that regardless of my list, I have had trouble beating in the past and need to know some good counters so I can adjust my list to be well rounded enough that it isn't a complete slaughter (for them). I know how both lists work, but I am just simply at a loss as to what to actually DO against them.
List 1: The Ork Kan wall.
I play Orks as well, and I field this list to good effect myself, yet as Eldar, I have no idea and have had little success beating this list. I had a 3rd place game I played against a Kan wall and got rolled (to be fair he admitted he had the best luck ever in a game, seized initiative and disabled/killed half of my transports/prisms on first turn). Templates thin out boys, (ive got prisms), but the kans couldnt be killed fast enough afterwards due to the KFFs and enough boys survived to cause damage. Squeeked out a minor defeat, could have been a massacre easily. Need some good tactics/unit combos/target priorities to disect and take down a kan wall list.
List 2: IG Leafblower/ AV12/Chimera spam
Short of stacking a list to directly counter this list (which isn't viable in a tourney environment) what should I do here? Most tourney lists don't stack 3x dragon squads (I deffinately dont, I use them, but also good CC squads) so how do you beat them?
Thanks for any input/insight. Again, its not specific to any list, I am talking about good general tactics/unit combos short of stacking a counter comp list. Ive played Eldar for a long time but these 2 still trouble me.
Ok i would suggest you to include in your list a Jetbiked SeerCouncil (5-6 Warlocks on Jetbikes and a Farseer with Fortune).Throw some Destructors in your Warlocks and there you are! A unit that is fast enough to destroy the Killakans and the Boyz alike.The Seer Council works also very well against IG.Just be sure that before blowing up the Chimeras you have blocked the exit points so that your opponent can't place his troops out.
Ok what you actually need is long ranged multishooting support.Prisms are ok since you use them to gun down some boyz.Against the Kans I doubt whether a blast with low BS can kill one of them. And even if it does it will destroy a single one.You have to gun down ermm.. about 5 more?I would suggest you to use some Falcons ,instead, with ScL.As long as the Kans follow the rules of the squadrons Falcons can destroy about 2 (or three if u r lucky)in a round of shooting.Now what you have to do is destract your opponent with your Seer Council.Send it (carefully thought) on your opponent weak side. The thing is that your Seer Council will not only kill many things but also it will destract your opponents attention and stop the horde for a while.This will give you extra time to kill the Wall and when is down send some Avengers or whatever you have to destroy the rest of his army. If your friend is the kind of person that is going saving all the cover saves then throw in your farseer the Spirits stones and the MW psyhic power and use it against his KFF.Be sure to reduce the horde to 10- models because otherwise the squad is fearless and MW does absolutely nothing agaist his BigMek.As for the Dragons...use only a single squad.Yes I love them and yes they can destroy whatever tank the face but Kans have AV 11 squadron you don't need Dragons to destroy them.And they will probably die after doing so.Last but not least avoid getting into CC.Play shooting!
Your main priority here are always the Boyz.These are the ones that struck you harder but shooting at them with cover saves is not a clever tactic so priorites are changing.Killa Kans comes first for the first turns since you want them to be down to shoot the boyz without cover.But as the game advances and the Kans are still alive you should change priorities and the Boyz come up next.This means that if somehow you can't kill the Kans do not be bothered and try to kill the Boyz.
Ok As said before your Seer Council is also needed here.But instead of destracting your opponent use it to blow up his transports.How?
1)Fortune the squad (love when doing that!)
2)Turbo boost all around the transport in a circle so as have all the exit points blocked.
3)After a round CC the vehicle
4)If destroyed them the passengers are destroyed too as they can not exit the vehicle without being 1" away from your models
Warlocks have S9 against vehicles
Your oponnent can't move so you auto-hit his vehicle.Roll only for Armor Penetration.
Your opponent can't Tank Shock you because if he wants to do so he has to move at cruising speed or more.
Ok I would suggest some Falcons also but equip them with EML as IG have better AV (about 12) and always have HF!
Filled about 1-2 squads of dragons depending on how many tanks your opponent has.
An another good tactic with your Seer Council is to give the Farseer the Spirit Stones and the Eldritch Storm.You might say what the @#$ but if you read the psyhic abilities rules it's says that it spuns the vehicle in a direction determined by a scatter dice.It doesn't say that you have to glance or penetrate the vehicle.In other wards if you use it on his tanks you will be able to spun it and have vision on an another side than his front where AV are lower and therefore it will be easier for your Falcons to destoy it.If you roll hit the you will be able to have vision on it's rear armor!
Priorites against IG is what can destroy your army in few seconds.Find the unit/tank your opponent has based his stragedy and blow it up.
I assume that this will mess his plans for a while.After that as said have at least the tanks shaken and the transports immobilised.This way he can't kill you neither capture objectives easily.
I would like to have some more info here in order to advise you about what to fill as the IG can play both mech and footslogging lists.
Anyway,hope I have been of some help
Last edited by MrRe-roll; May 12th, 2011 at 07:34.
Thanks for your in depth response! I can honestly say, I've never implemented a list that had used a Seer council. I'm not opposed to it, I just never was able to make it work. The one thing that everyone says and I dont get, is that Seer councils are good tarpit units for big mobs. In my experience 4+ even with rerolls is too inconsistant. With regards to combating a kan wall, I do believe they would do a darn good job (S9 and a rerollable invuln) against kans in CC. I will have to see what I can get while still including a Council.
Seer Council has 3+ armor save due to being a Jetbike and a 4++ invulnerable due to their rune armor.
So you re-roll either the 3+ from the normal weapons and the 4++ from AP3 weapons,etc.
Also if you turbo-boost you have a 3+ cover save so if you got hit by a basilisc then you save on 3+ covr with re-roll.Nasty ehh?
Last edited by MrRe-roll; May 12th, 2011 at 08:22.
You cannot turboboost and fortune in the same turn barring some RAW shenanigans you can pull regarding the Farseer. Here's the link to the thread post regarding this very issue that got brought up last month. http://www.librarium-online.com/foru...ml#post1820685
My problem with the Seer Council, is that while it is a very good unit, in a true all-comers list it will get shut down fairly easily by some of the better psyker defence such as the Space Wolves Rune Priest. Without fortune, the Seer Council is a roughly 400 point squad of Guardian Jetbikes with some fancy psychic powers, not durable at all and will quickly be shot down in a storm of bullets as everything in their army that isn't going towards your tanks will be directed towards the Council until it dies.
Scratchbuilding Fire Prism Crystals
2K Mech Eldar in 2010: 25Win/4Lose/8Draw
As Fleeting Aether points out, a farseer may not turbo boost if he casts a power, and warlock units can be very expensive for what they are.
Personally i would stick with fire prisms and firedragons as my antitank, perhaps backed up by some vypers, warwalkers, Wraithlord, swooping hawks or Dark reapers.
It sounds like you are the victim of heavy armour lists with a significant alpha-strike. The best response to this is increasing your anti tank ability while minimizing your opponents ability to shut down your antitank. protecting your vehicles, antitank is best done either through clever placement or the use of a second turn Autarch strike.
I love Pathfinders.
Additionally I mention that YES he wants the Seer Council to attact fire so as to enable the other Vehicles gun the rest of his army down!
And of course will throw his Farseer the Fortune psyhic power.The first psyhic power to throw in your Council.
Doom is useless if cast on the Seer Concil itself,and the others are just optional for me!
Fire Dragons 1-2 squads no more
Vypers: Need to have practice on using them
warwalkers: Yes they are a good choice against both armies
Wraithlord: might works against orks absolutely not against IG (too many S9 weapons)
Swooping Hawks : Good against Orks infantry (you want to destroy the Kans not glance them not to mention the risk of getting too close to the enemy) against IG will probably work but need a lot of attention on how u will use them.
Dark Reapers: Out of question due to being Heavy Support slots.Better spam tank than those guys
Last edited by MrRe-roll; May 12th, 2011 at 16:28.
Last edited by csbassplayer; May 12th, 2011 at 16:51.
+1 to the War Walkers. I field a squad of 2-3 with dual EML supported with a guide-seer. That's 6-8 krak or plasma shots/turn and with the guide...brutal.
Great at taking out vehicles and mobs...That Plasma pinning can be brutal en masse.
At the beginning of turn 1, I spray my opponent's army with the bacon flavored spray. Then I unleash my Boston Terrier Squiggoth who then devours their entire bacon flavored army! There is no defense against her cuteness! All are doomed!
That said I agree jetbike councils are effective and resiliant (though expensive) vehicle killers. Leafblower should be a little easier to handle now that they can't just bring along anti-psycher support from other codex's, and runes of warding are hard on IG psychers. Still a tough list to deal with.
Also I do see people having success with wraithguard as troops and wraithlords, but I don't know how well that's understood. Though I can see it against IG lists that spam low AP attacks. Fortuned wraithguard can shrug that and a lot more off while in cover, and they'll be a solid threat to vehicles. Not sure about Kans though. Although the lords could do some damage and boyz will at least take a while to bring them down.