Repairing our codex, part XI - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    Senior Member MrBenis's Avatar
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    Repairing our codex, part XIII

    Okay so the general structure of these threads is to address our BAD units first, then move on to the better ones. Please always read every post to avoid repetition. Please also try to discuss only the unit in question specificly. Referencing other units is OK, but should be limited to times when the other unit directly overlaps the target unit of this thread. Please do not adjust the units points cost. Let's bring our boys UP TO the points we're being charged, rather than lower them for the benefit of more units elsewhere. We're an elite army, right? Let's be expensive and ridiculously deadly, then.

    These threads will work in two stages. First we brainstorm about the flaws as we perceive them, and provide a wide list of changes as we feel is appropriate. Phase two is taking the most supported ideas, compiling them together and finally arguing over any critical additions to the changelist.
    Banshees, and Scorpions. Together instead of seperately because too often people want them to have overlapping functions.

    from MWG.com
    scorpions
    Pros & Cons

    + Super Human strength
    + 3+ Save
    + Exarch
    + Outflank
    + Infiltrate
    + 4 attacks on the charge
    + Good WS and BS
    + Great Initiative
    + With Kandaras they get a 3+ COVER save when in most cover (which is nearly all the time)
    + Grenades
    + Cheap
    + Don’t require expensive transports
    + Can move through cover
    + Scorpions Claw
    + Biting Blade

    - Power Weapons will slaughter you
    - Space Marines (or anything with 3+saves or better) will cause some problems, as you will struggle to pen his armour
    - Almost guaranteed to die by the end of the game
    - Outflank is very risky and could leave you in the middle of nowhere and out of cover
    - Kandaras is too expensive to make him worth taking
    - Chainblades
    - Scorpions Claw
    - Cant take an Autarch and Infiltrate at the same time
    - No fleet of foot
    - Expensive compared to say ORKS who get them same number of attacks per ork, but can take 3x more for the same points.


    banshees
    Pros & Cons

    + Power Weapons
    + Decent Save
    + Exarch
    + Banshee Mask
    + Nice core skills
    + Attach an HQ and they sky rocket in effectiveness
    + Good leadership
    + Fleet

    - Expensive
    - NEEDS Transport
    - Low Strength and Toughness
    - Without support, anything T4 or above will kick your teeth in
    - Armour is decent at best
    - No real survivability
    - Needs a baby sitter
    Personally I think that one aspect could get removed. I think that banshees, aesthetically and functionally, are unimpressive and obsolete compared to scorpions. In return for banshees getting removed entirely, scorpions gain a +3 initiative bonus on the charge, count as having grenades and scorpion chainsword is rending. Ok so scorpions get buffed pretty majorly but they still don't have default pw attacks, fleet or acrobatic.

    That said another exarch power would be good, maybe a once-off power ala deathleaper?

    Last edited by MrBenis; May 27th, 2011 at 10:37.
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  3. #2
    LO Zealot goldenS's Avatar
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    the scorpions are good at what they do, just need to make sure that you engage the right units (ie basic HQ's, IC's) banshees are also good, but as pointed out NEED a transport. if planning on a footslog, Scorps are for you. if giong Mech, Banshees are the ones.

  4. #3
    Senior Member WhiteRussian's Avatar
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    Scorpions
    Scorpions, in my opinion is a scalpel unit, the only thing the REALLY need is to be reliable and a tad more survivable (in case of a dreadnaught fight).
    1- Having a rule to choose the side you are entering from, or, say, being able to jump out of foilage or debree will greatly increase their value; It will make the unit extremely versatile and will provide some sort of psychological warfare (everyone loves to hug cover now, with a unit of scorpions creeping around enemy commander may be hesitant to place units too close to cover or accept that some units will get run over.
    2- Instead of +str the equipment provides, or in addition to it, scorpions may have a poisoned weapon (5+) just in case they run into TMC of sorts; it is not game breaking, but does give us an edge and utility.
    3- a simple addition of krak grenades can fix the lack of anti-tank we have; it will not be a game-breaking nor scorpions will be amazing at AT, but will give at least a small chance to survive a tank encounter.
    4- or you can forgo 2 and 3 and just give scorpions rending, but this may encroach on harlequin territory.
    All these rules will make scorpions to have a very defined niche in the army - to combat units of an enemy army moving and watch their back.

    Banshees
    Banshees currently need a transport not because THEY need it, but rather because the game demands and favors mech deployment.

    1- Furious charge - it will make us all happy and fix the problems we have with MEQ, very simple and balanced solution IMO.
    2- Have a reliable exarch power that will make the enemies hit banshees on 5+. Upgraded War Shout will raise the survivability of the banshees.
    These two changes will eliminate the prerequisite of a babysitter for banshees to do their job and will increase the likelihood of their survival while at it. The balancing factor for such a potent unit will still remain - to know how not to kill everything on charge, we are not teh spess marheenes, finesse is our tool;

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenS View Post
    the scorpions are good at what they do, just need to make sure that you engage the right units (ie basic HQ's, IC's) banshees are also good, but as pointed out NEED a transport. if planning on a footslog, Scorps are for you. if giong Mech, Banshees are the ones.
    @goldenS
    No one can successfully foot slog in 5e, you will spend your game chasing a rhino that will just move back and shoot you every turn; Scorpions are good at what they do but we lack reliability. If they would do what they need to do every time than it will be a different world; The reason they do not need transport is because of their alternative deployment that sometimes can leave them out of business.
    Banshees for the most part are fine, just need few minor tweaks for survivability;
    Last edited by WhiteRussian; May 27th, 2011 at 12:27.

  5. #4
    Senior Member Dire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteRussian View Post
    No one can successfully foot slog in 5e, you will spend your game chasing a rhino that will just move back and shoot you every turn;
    ...and Grey Knights raise eybrows in shock and answer: "Impossible!" just before they're footslog <I just know no proper word, neither massacre nor slaughter, not even brutal anal rape describes how extremely they pulverise mechdar> You to oblivion.

    @Benis

    With all respect, if You suggest dropping aspect I suggest You just start playing more competetive army to satysfy gamey needs.
    My beloved Eldar force, I'll judge your roster core. I appreciate your concern, You're gonna think and learn. Rep me... rep me, my friend.

  6. #5
    Senior Member MrBenis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dire View Post
    ...and Grey Knights raise eybrows in shock and answer: "Impossible!" just before they're footslog <I just know no proper word, neither massacre nor slaughter, not even brutal anal rape describes how extremely they pulverise mechdar> You to oblivion.

    @Benis

    With all respect, if You suggest dropping aspect I suggest You just start playing more competetive army to satysfy gamey needs.
    Not to trumpet my own horn but I have tied and beaten competitive BA lists with my own lists which are generally kinda crappy.

    In the only instance where banshees have done anything even remotely noteworthy (for me) was when a pack of 6+avatar assaulted a doomed terminator squad with 4/6 TH/SS. The banshees survived with 2 left over, the avatar got mulched and my farseer had to join in the second assault phase to keep attack numbers up.

    The point being that I got lucky. Banshees are just crap. In theory an entire squad of powerweapons would be awesome except that when extrapolated onto other armies units; they have jump-packs, poison/IK or 2+ armour. So we have cheapish melee squads of average strength and average stats. They're not intimidating and there's nothing they do that can't be done by another of our codex entries that will still have more flexibility and staying power.

    That's just my opinion but the more blogs and such that I see dedicated to eldar almost universally claim that scorpions are better. Rather than keep banshees around it would be better to have 18pt scorpions with good stats and keep harlequins for anti-elites, with +5pt pw's instead of harlequin kiss.

    This seems like a minor issue taken out of context but makes sense in the larger scheme of things as we have poor troops/FA and bloated elites/HS. Personally I don't think the whole "take a PL for aspect troops" really cuts it either as those PL's have poor utility in their current state.
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  7. #6
    Senior Member WhiteRussian's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Dire;1832454]...and Grey Knights raise eybrows in shock and answer: "Impossible!" just before they're footslog <I just know no proper word, neither massacre nor slaughter, not even brutal anal rape describes how extremely they pulverise mechdar> You to oblivion.

    How glad I am to know that all GEQ armies are now measured by MEQ standards of brand spanking new 5E codex.

    @OP
    I think this thread turned a tad into flame instead of a discussion about how to make our codex better.
    Last edited by WhiteRussian; May 28th, 2011 at 18:21.

  8. #7
    LO Zealot Farseer Macleod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrBenis View Post
    In the only instance where banshees have done anything even remotely noteworthy (for me) was when a pack of 6+avatar assaulted a doomed terminator squad with 4/6 TH/SS. The banshees survived with 2 left over, the avatar got mulched and my farseer had to join in the second assault phase to keep attack numbers up.

    The point being that I got lucky. Banshees are just crap. In theory an entire squad of powerweapons would be awesome except that when extrapolated onto other armies units; they have jump-packs, poison/IK or 2+ armour. So we have cheapish melee squads of average strength and average stats. They're not intimidating and there's nothing they do that can't be done by another of our codex entries that will still have more flexibility and staying power.
    I always use banshees as cleanup units, attacking squads that have already been shot half to death. Even Marines fall to these guys when your rolling 30 dice and need 4s to hit and 5s to wound when they are at below half strength.
    But as with everything in the Eldar army, they only work effectively when everything else has a had a piece of the unit they are going to assault. For these guys to become a stand alone unit, Furious charge and a slightly better stat line. I'd be quite happy to pay 20 points a model if they had 2 base attacks and furious charge or maybe something that works similar to the grey knights rad grenades making the unit they charge/or charged them -1 toughness for that round.

  9. #8
    Senior Member MrBenis's Avatar
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    And that's where my issue with them surfaces. They aren't a standalone unit, infact, like you said they require substantial support to be effective.

    And even then they're not effective. I'd define 'effective' as having demonstratable points economy over their targets/analogues.
    I ran some numbers in the other thread talking about banshees. Without doom they have an average of 3 wounds on 25% of all combats between a squad of 6 banshees and 6 space marines.

    Needing many banshees to kill fewer spacemarines is poor unit economy. That's like suggesting Eldar are WW2 Russians. It's not a pretty picture even if it is accurate. If a person is unwilling to drop Banshees entirely I can understand but it doesn't stop the well researched evidence from showing that an army with banshees is always going to underperforming because when the girls are off field that's point better spent elsewhere, and when they are on the field you need to donate unjustified levels of points to their support.

    By contrast Scorpions are largely self-sufficient. Harlequins similar to banshees need support but they have more attacks, higher initiative and more and better special rules.
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    Scorpions need a better way of doing their job honestly rending would fix them 100% in my opinion and maybe make chain sabers two weapons that are rending and +2 strength


    Banshees could get furious charge and that would make them solid. Warshout is a slightly tacky power though, and I would love to see it switched out with something more reliable though. Also on a banshee note I find that banshees wiping marines is often the worst because regular fire will obliterate them. Staying in a combat for 2 assault phases is ideal
    Last edited by fombat; May 30th, 2011 at 08:41.

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    There is no way in hell Banshees will be removed. This is because they have been an intrinsic part of Eldar fluff for so long, longer than Scorpions have.

    Anyway, Banshees need to hit hard. Furious Charge would go nicely. An 'acrobatic' invuln save, like Wyches, would also be welcome. Scorpions have always been pretty balanced, although with 5th ed pretty much every choice in the Eldar codex is showing its age. It's about time Scorps got Fleet (with Incubi having them).
    Last edited by Dragannia; June 13th, 2011 at 11:19.

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