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By this I mean dual autarch kinds of lists where you leave everything off the board at first. There are obvious advantages like avoiding an enemies alpha strike and getting to come on wherever.
However there are some problems that are keeping me from trying it. And I'm not sure if they can really be overcome.
-If autarchs like milkshakes, than officers of the fleet drink them. They drink them up!
-Our heavy weapons got nerfed a little in the new edition, as did the spiders for anti vehicle. Ok walkers are better... But the bottom line is that while we can hit really hard up close, we just don't have that great of long range shooting. And since we're mostly coming on from table edges we may only be hitting with the long ranged stuff.
-The opponent gets time to maneuver. They'll be set up as they want to in buildings, cover, and so on. Also unlike real first turn strikes they'll have smoke and other such defenses active.
-You may not gain much or anything for the build if you would have gotten first turn or if you're playing dawn of war.
-Autarchs seem neccessary to make it work well, but once on the tabletop they seem pretty unimpressive as HQs go. Though Yriel has some spice.
So can we make it really work? Even against that snotty officer of the fleet?
As far as Autarches go Yriel is the best but you can make a pretty decent Autarch by putting them on a jetbike and giving them a laser lance, mandiblasters and either a Fusion gun or a reaper launcher, the reaper launcher is always a fun one, 48" S5 AP3 goodness that can ALWAYS be fired because while on a bike he is relentless, with the reaper launcher he comes to the same points as Yriel and would have 6 S6 power weapon attacks on the charge. This is a good Autarch.
As for reserves denial, nothing annoys your opponent more than having all their shooting denied after paying all those points for those expensive lascannons and what have you especially if they go first so they are losing two shooting phases and you're essentially only losing one.
I find the true strength to a reserve army is the fact that once your opponent has moved his army you can essentially bring your entire army on one side of the field and use cover to block LOS as you know where everything of his is and start to pick off isolated units and keep your distance from his dangerous units that will really hurt you and take them out from afar.
Outflanking units are great in Reserve armies, Warwalkers especially. A unit of 3 warwalkers outflanking laying down 24 S6 Scatter laser shots will dig out any unit from cover or wreck the back armour of tanks excluding landraiders. A squad of warwalkers with star cannons, Expensive I know, will be the death of any unit on foot left out of cover.
So in a nutshell reserve armies allow you to bring you units on in the best way to react to how he has deployed his units, if they have drop pods these are going to lose their advantage of surprise strikes and if he leaves them in the open then its an easy kill. I do like reserve armies but they do need Autarches to make it work. I'm not sure how competitive it is in tourneys but its certainly good in friendlys.
Remembering that officers of the fleet make your reserves roll -1 so if your list relied on maximum output per turn over a given number of turns (say 3) then he's actually doing you a favour as you're more likely to have the whole army come on the same turn that way.
Either way, you've still got the issue of not having the reach to neccessrily do anything except maybe fire a reaper launcher and/or bright lance the turn you come on, which is not a whole lot of effect for units that pricey.That was certainly true back in the day. However in the current mechanized environment I'm finding most armies have the speed and range to stick together and still hit about anywhere after that much maneuvering and to hold back until you arrive from reserves and still have plenty of time to roll over to objectives.I find the true strength to a reserve army is the fact that once your opponent has moved his army you can essentially bring your entire army on one side of the field and use cover to block LOS as you know where everything of his is and start to pick off isolated units and keep your distance from his dangerous units that will really hurt you and take them out from afar.With that much time to maneuver with nothing to shoot at or shoot at them there's no excuse for an opponent to give up rear armor shots to outflankers they know are comming (and maybe not even side armor shots). It would also be rather unlikely to have infantry out of cover. So the walkers are probalby firing at either av12 or AV11 and cover.A unit of 3 warwalkers outflanking laying down 24 S6 Scatter laser shots will dig out any unit from cover or wreck the back armour of tanks excluding landraiders. A squad of warwalkers with star cannons, Expensive I know, will be the death of any unit on foot left out of cover.
Yes which was my point. A tardy IG player will delay your army as long as he can. Don't forget the bonus +1/+2 is optional for the eldar player, I imagine the -1 is optional for him so in a sense if he was clever he would mess with rolls to delay the things that'll hurt for as long as he can, while leaving the weaker units alone so he can tear them up unthreatened.
You make a sacrifice playing an all-reserves army and it's often not worth it..
Doubled somehow, sorry.
Last edited by Fuzzyspuz; June 10th, 2011 at 10:28. Reason: Removing double post
Outflanking Walkers + DSing Spiders + DSing sacrificial Warp Jump Generator Fusion Gun Autarch (who may jump back and hide as single models with a bit of luck) + the regular army entering as usual means you will easily target at least SOME rear armour.
Dawn of War is actually in your favour. It denies the enemy ability to capture multiple objectives early on and may well put them in a defensive position, while you lose nothing.
Smoke Launchers are an issue, but alas, in regular games they are as well. And I'd rather shoot first at smoked vehicle (with no more smokes avaible) then be shot at by such.
Having first turn just means less time for objective grabbing and less time for him to position his forces.
Having second turn means badass.
Double Autarchs with meltas cost 160 points. In 2k that's affordable. Hell, even 210 for suicidal ones is more than affordable contemplating their capabilities.
Spread deployment and knowing exactly enemy positioning while he knows nothing means superior deployment and ability to adjust own strengh - mobility, refused flank, crossfire and such.
Non-MSU armies suffer greatly.
Combat armies suffer greatly.
Slow and not nessecarily fast armies suffer greatly.
MSU Guard suffers greatly (in your faces bastards!) whenever a Chimera explodes. Footy (not so popular, thank God) does not.
Balance has to be kept between range and rate of fire for main elements of the army as they gonna be far away. In some cases, this is beneficial.
Outflanking Walkers ARE evil.
My beloved Eldar force, I'll judge your roster core. I appreciate your concern, You're gonna think and learn. Rep me... rep me, my friend.
Well, true. But my point was that's also true for non-reserves denial lists. That goes for a number of your other points as well, like smoke.Dawn of War is actually in your favour. It denies the enemy ability to capture multiple objectives early on and may well put them in a defensive position, while you lose nothing.He knows your deployment selections (DS, outflank, regular) and that's actually a lot of information, especially if we're trying to use fire dragons and other shorter ranged units. I was a big fan of refused flanks, it was my default tactic through fourth edition. But in this shooty mechanized age things are looking less and less like a fantasy game, and more like a pack of vehicles that can hit nearly anywhere on the table.Spread deployment and knowing exactly enemy positioning while he knows nothing means superior deployment and ability to adjust own strengh - mobility, refused flank, crossfire and such.