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So in the middle of a somewhat queit spell in our little bit of the forum, I thought I'd post something I've been considering for a while now and get some opinions.
To cut a long story short, I always considerd one of the main strengths of an MC, and especially our MC's, was that they were nearly untouchable unless you had a lot of luck or some sort of special weapon. It was up to the heavy duty units to deal with them, the usual run of the mill infantry just didnt have a chance.
Except now this isnt the case anymore. With every new codex it seems somthing is lined up just itching to take our MC's down. Now this is only to be expected, new book, new toys. But it seems recently units that are the backbone of the army are suddenly able to give our creatures a headache.
As an example, Dark eldar. A humble warrior squad is more than capable of taking a few chunks out of our big beastys thanks to posioned weaponry and they've got ungodly amounts of AP2 on their transports. 4 Trueborn blasters in a venom can easily one shot something like a tyrant or carnifex and theres plenty more like that. Grey knights pack power weaponry in every squad, even if you avoid the force weapon, its still gonna hurt, and thats before you get to the high strength rending shots littering most army lists. Blood angels can spam large numbers of AP 2 from razorbacks and the like, Space Wolves have those brutal long fang squads, Thunderwolves and not to mention the basic grey hunters are pretty nasty to boot. As for guard... well guard still do what they've always done.
Now dont get me wrong, Im not trying to say these are broken or unbeatable. Everything has its weakness. It just seems to me that our creatures are coming up against more and more lists capable of exploiting their weaknesses in the competitive scene at the moment.
So what do you guys think of this? Is it just a case of needed to just shake up how we use creatures a bit? Should we be looking towards less big creatures and more medium or swarmy bugs? Is it even a problem and have I just got a bit delusional? Looking forward to reading your thoughts.
Last edited by Heirodule; June 27th, 2011 at 20:45.
Your friendly neighbourhood gargantuan creature
I was just having the same thoughts the other day while at my local gaming store. I was talking to a few people about the grey knights situation in particular. Over the last few games, it seems like MCs have really lost their edge. Even though they will smash quite a few things up in CC, they can usually be taken down by a decently equipped squad. The lack of any kind of invulnerable save (save for swarmloard and zoanthropes) really hurts vs any kind of power weapon and especially powerfists. The lack of eternal warrior on anything we have now really dooms any kind of medium bug list either. Any missile/lascannon/etc means an instant kill on any medium bugs. I really feel like we are getting pushed more and more towards lots of large decently upgraded units of small bugs. It really seems like we have to tailor a list to a list to what we are fighting to have an effective MC compliment to an army.
Personally I am going to start running primes instead of tyrants now. The primes have done more in games than the tyrants have and seem to live much longer with a warrior compliment. The only other MC that has really done it for me has been a tyrannofex. I just picked up a tervigon though so we will see how that goes in some play testing.
We're Darklances AP2 before? When I started playing 40k I was running DE and would run 6 squads with 2 DL each, a Ravager with 3 DLs, with an Archon with a full command squad. I remember wrecking vehicles and MCs alike with that, stopped running beastmasters and took up 2 squads of wyches in raiders. Then I fiddled around with Grots before going over to Harlies. But, yeah DE should have been doing serious damage back in 3rd, no idea about 4th.
IG should have heavy weapons that can wreck MCs, Tanks, and troops alike, it's just part of the whole artillery thing. Heck even Tyranids were okay at wrecking MCs. MCs have always been a trade off, though, as you'd be missing out on like 40+ guants, and that's some serious cannon-fodder. I remember that until 4th most people I played weren't running tons of MCs, and then the whole 6 Carnis thing kicked in and tons of people were rocking that. But, I dunno, that's just me. A MC is a terrifying sight on the field and, in my mind, was always a good means of confusing the enemy into shooting it, instead of all those juicy winged warriors with the winged Tyrant that one would use to mop up after jetting dozens of guants forward to bog down units in combat.
A youth with his first cigar makes himself sick; a youth with his first girl makes other people sick. - Mary Wilson Little
IMHO, I think this means that the best army lists for 'nids are going to be "nidzilla-ish" as of old. Not "pure" 'zilla, but I think you need a healthy number of them. At 2000 pts, I can't see fielding fewer than 6, even if you want a "horde-ish" list. Even against DE, you need something to absorb shots that would otherwise be hitting your squishier units, and that have a good enough armour save to shrug off at least a few wounds for a few rounds.
Beyond that, outside of hive guard and zoeys, MCs are the only places where you get the big guns. Can't play 'nids without the big guns ... at all.
ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014
Yeah, MCs are losing their power. I think that GW is perhaps trying to encourage 'nid players to field more of a horde army, as that was what they have usually been considered as.
Big things scare people, therefore they aim a lot of stuff at it, big things die, and then they realise they have several warrior and hormagaunt broods on their doorstep. That's my basic tactic. I never expect things to survive too long or I am just setting myself up for relying on certain units too much.
A well rounded vanilla Space Marine army can beat a 'nid army any day. Take some lascannons and power fists for the monsters, have some krak missiles to instant death warriors, then flamers in their tactical squads for dealing with the hordes.
Really, monstrous creatures are just as vulnerable and play as much of a part in any game as any other unit. A great idea is to just run around with naked Carnifexes and then have a deathstar bonesword warrior/shrike brood, therefore the opponent (usually) concentrates fire on the carnifexes which will die for a good cause as that deathstar unit will be right in the midst of the enemy by then.
I have to say I haven't played much of GK/DE yet, but they sound pretty killy better what out for them.
I'm sure all this will be fixed in the next codex release anyway and this is just MHO
Those tactics are sound and actually go along with a lot of how I play any army. People have this tendency to think "OMG this Tank/MC is so sick and OMG I'mma use it it will kill everything!" Then they get mad when it dies the first turn because their entire list was based around it. However I use them, and you seem to as well, simply to cause a distraction while the real punch lies elsewhere. Knowing how to control your enemy is one of the greatest things would will ever learn in this game. Add in that I'm the kind of person to take a Venerable Dreadnought chassis convert the heck out of it, then run it as a standard dreadnought with all the venerable dreadnoughts I run as Mk V armours. There is a basis in my Chapter's background for this, but it messes with other players, even when you keep telling them "The one with the 4 legs that is pressing the tip of one leg into a daemon is a normal dreadnought" they still see it and are afraid.
A youth with his first cigar makes himself sick; a youth with his first girl makes other people sick. - Mary Wilson Little
Were our MCs ever hard to kill in 5th? I can't remember playing even one game where a Trygon was actually difficult to bring down. Still, 200 points into something that'll force the enemy to waste 500 points' worth of shooting at it, or sacrifice an entire unit to it just to avoid having to focus fire it for an entire turn is completely worth it, not to mention I feel that all these new codices are finally making Mawlocs as good as I had hoped they'd be. 170 points for a unit that'll absorb a Grey Knight CC squad or lots of firepower, after dumping a large AP2 blast on the enemy, while my Shrikes/Gaunts/Gargoyles/Raveners are advancing? Yes please.
Then there's Tyrannofexes. These guys only really suffer when facing Dark Eldar, and even then they actually outrange the enemy, allowing for a couple of wrecked vehicles before they go down, or forcing the enemy to fire ~10 Dark Lances at them, assuming you're not abusing cover rules.
And of course Tervigons. I actually use these guys as huge fire magnets. My Tervigon conversions are HUGE. Sure, they suffer from the "can't hide from anything" syndrome, but they also make the enemy throw everything they've got at them turn after turn, just because of how threatening they look, not realizing the real threat's those 80+ small things advancing across the table.
Then again, I mostly play mixed lists, somewhere in-between Nidzilla and swarmy.
IMHO, You just have to revise your tactics a bit. But that goes without saying for whatever army you face. I personally run what I beleive to be a good mix of swarmy and MC list. I have the Swarmlord, 2 Tervigons, 2 Tyrannofexxes, 3 squads of 3 zoanthorpes, and then a bunch of swarms in both termagaunts, and hormagaunts 2 squads of each. I run a guant screen in front of the Tervigons, followed by the Zoans, with the lord heading to their biggest CC threat, with the 2 tyranofexxes hanging back IN COVER.
You HAVE to move your monsterous creatures from cover to cover the best you can. For me cover is also crutial to the hormaguants just because of the cover save they need. Tervigons are great to stick cloe to the hormeis as well cause the confer FnP on one of the best troop choices in the game.
By moving from cover to cover your MC should be able to close the distance they need to with a few wounds left. I find foot slogging Zoans accross the board to be HIGHLY effective, with a guant screen so they cannot be assulted. They are bullet MAGNETS with a great Invun save. It takes a lot of shots to get 9 of of them of the table, and at the same time I have 2 tyrannofexxes in the back blasting away at those targets that can hurt the most.
With the updated codex I like all the rest was a little upset with what happened to Carnifexes. That is why in most cases of nid players I have noticed recently, they dont have those 6 carnfex lists anymore. We can argue the fact all day long but I have ONE loss in all the games I have played with this list, facing many armies including GK's (who i lost to by the way!). Stupid Purifiers. But have since killed the same army 4 times over, always a close game though.
What I have noticed in my games is the more time the they spend firing at my squads, the MC's eat them, the more time they spend trying to bring down my MC's the 100+ little guys charging in front of them eat them. I have only play DE once, but he did bring down a few MC's in my army before 2 squads of 30 Hormaguants ate 1200+ points of elites, whyches, and Homonculie, and he was tabled in 5 turns.
The honest answer is yes. MC's are less awesome then they were 3 codices ago. Force weapons and poison weapons are designed to bring down big bad beasties.
This forces loyal tyranid players to move toward hoardy armies. It's a good move for GW. An elite MC army would probably cost around 400$ if you found good prices on things. A full swarm would cost quite a bit more especially if you consider paint and flock and the like. That's why FB is so hoard based now. It all comes down to profit.
In another route GW seems to be heading in the direction of "new codex wins." hoping to entice players to start new armies or improve old ones with new models. Again. Profit.
When nids get a new codex I expect to see 4 point gaunts (so we'll buy more,) probably a whole new type of small bug that's 7 points but way better then a gaunt (so we'll buy a bunch,) T7-8 MCs T5 warriors, and eternal warrior and invuln saves for more models (so we'll attract a bunch of people that only care about winning and are willing to pay for it.)
I wish I could just field 10 MC's and 6 hive guard and win.
Nidzilla is dead. Long live nidzilla...lite (or How I learned to stop worrying and love Toughness 6). Pure nidzilla, just like stealershock, is yesterday's trend. The new nids require a mix of both big 'uns and gribblies in order to compete against the better armies. That's not to say pure nidzilla is no longer viable. It's still competitive against a lot of builds. It just doesn't have what it takes anymore to handle the really good armies/builds. Same goes with stealershock, though both these builds are absolutely scary to behold.
BTW, sorry for the shameless plug-in, but the last tyranid army I faced scared the stormbolters off my grey knights! (Batrep (Good Knight Bugs! Grey Knights vs Stealershock Tyranids - Rematch vs Janthkin 1850) found here.)
Record: Win - Loss - Draw: Hive Fleet Pandora (New) 32-6-6 Space Wolf 7th Co. 52-11-6
Blood Angels 12-4-2 Daemonhunters 20-8-3
Imperial Guards 12-5-2 Daemons 8-3-2