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Sorry if this has been talked to death but the search is running really slow for me and i am curious which is more useful.
I see more mobility and better ranged weapons and larger squads with the Guardians, but i do see the punch the Spears can pack on tanks.
Whats your take?
Guardian Jetbikes are overall better Shining Spears can be used well, but mus tbe very specific and can easily backfire. Guardian Jetbikes have a lot of viability and options.
Guardian Jetbikes are troops can take and usually will take around 2-3 cannons which when having two squads and maybe some vypers cause a lot of synergy that shining spears don't have Shining Spears are limited on what they can safely assault too
And a Farseer council on Jetbikes, all with singing spears are...
Fill in the blake
Guardian bikes, hands down. You can never have enough shuriken cannons.
That being said, adding a jet bike Autarch with a fusion gun to the Spears make them exceptional tank killers.
How shining spears are tank killers is beyong my grasp. If they were s8 all of them yeah. But at s6? Shining spears are elite killers but everything they do banshees do better. At tank hunting even the guardian jetbikes are better when they have warlock with singing spear ans cannons that are 24 inches range not 6.
Allow me to clarify my post...
By 'tank' I mean any mechanized vehicle capable of mounting heavy/super-superheavy weapons, may or may not have a transport capacity, and has an AV rather than a SV.
Obviously Land Raiders, Monoliths, and Baneblades are out of their league. Even a few of the Leman Russ variants give them a challenge (that's why you include the Autarch with the fusion gun).
Light tanks (Hellhounds, Whirlwinds), ordinance (Basilisk, Mantacore, etc), and troop transports (Rhino, Chimera, Raider, etc.), and most skimmers are where the Spears make their money back for you.
Guardian bikes are much better equipped for a fire support or infantry-killing role (including those elites you mentioned). Why waste a dozen jet bikes hunting a single tank with ONE singing spear-armed warlock when they would be much better suited wiping out the better part of an Ork Mob, 3/4 of a termigant brood, or a squad of Marines? That much massed firepower is wasted on tanks.
The Spears are a quality unit capable of eliminating those 'less-heavy' mechanized threats to the rest of your army, taking on whatever falls out the back end when it blows up, and supporting your assaults in rather dramatic fashion.
Guardian bikes excel at dislodging troops holed up on an objective, agressively defending said objective, and swooping in on the last turn to claim those objectives that are uncontested; thereby winning you the game.
In my opinion, and I don't mean to sound offensive, if you've been using a single Warlock with an expensive jet bike bodyguard to hunt tanks, you're wasting points.
Well if you're going all in on Jetbikes there's no reason why you shouldn't use both. They fulfil different roles and I don't really think you can say that one is particularly better than the other. However, Shining Spears are only really good in a dedicated bike army because everything they do other units can do better than them so you need to have a real incentive to run them. I personally don't like Guardian Jetbikes at all because of the low WS, BS and Initiative, but if you're running an army full of them they can be quite effective.
Point: Guardian Jet Bikes are by far the better unit.
I agree completely. I certainly wasn't trying to say that they weren't. Your assessment of their comparative strengths was dead on, and you presented a cogent arguement on how to best use them both.
The truth is that I rarely, if ever, use either unit except in certain themed army builds. I tend to put my points into Vypers instead.
Besides, I can't very well argue with math can I?
It must be said, however, that simple equations don't always hold up well on the table; there are rather more variables involved.
All I can tell you is that one of my friends, an absolute tactical genius and wonderful out-of-the box thinker, after watching me struggle to make effective use of the Spears suggested I try such a strategy.
I did so against a number of opponents and her genius was again vindicated as those spears were a terror to light tanks for the next half-dozen games that I played. Does the strategy always work? NO. What strategy ever does? But I have found through considerable experience that units like the Spears can often exceed your expectations if given the chance to do so. That's one of the reasons that I love this game!
That is fair enough. Of course is about tactics, style of play, opponent and such.