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  1. #1
    Senior Member False Son's Avatar
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    Rethinking the Archon

    I was thinking at first of doing a Baron Hellion Troops list, then a Sliscus Wyche/Hellion list. Finally, i thought of doing a Coven list. While all of these are fun choices, i got to thinking about how these lists already have catchy names and have been discussed at length.

    I also mentioned in another post the idea of taking fewer transports than average, despite the fact that i have enormous respect for the Raider and all the nasty tricks it can do. I'm just tanked out.

    So then i got to thinking about making an army with a bunch of units and choices that have been largely neglected. First, i was thinking of Mandrakes. I'm a big fan of their potential, and i've used them enough as a single unit to really mess up my opponents. I didn't want them to compete with my potential Incubi or Bloodbrides, then i got to thinking about HQ choices.

    Lady Malys is starting to appeal to me, especially in a Mandrake heavy list that will require good positioning. Also, he ability to take a Court of the Archon (and it's mixed bag of goodies) is a selling point. I like the Duke and the Baron, but unless i'm building for them specifically i feel like they are slightly underwhelming. This goes back to the basic Archon as well, i'm starting to rethink the Court.

    I'm not asking for you guys to write me an army list,, just throw some ideas at me. So far i have mandrakes, Malys+Court (though, composition is undecided) beastmasters and warriors. Next thoughts?

    Stab it, slash it, bite, tank shock and smash it. If that fails, shoot it.

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  3. #2
    Senior Member nigelboyette's Avatar
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    i don't really like the court because it is unpredictable it is a mixed bag that really isn't that effective. mandrakes ... i like mandrakes they are just tricky to use and require the attention of a homunculus, a good defensive unit when placing a portal though. here's an idea and it works well for me with eldrad and can work well with malys also. ... take a full unit of beast masters and place it on a flank, your enemy will have to place some units to deal with the beasts hopefully he will put most of his better units over there to deal with them. then use malys to put the beast masters back into the portal after he has deployed thus rendering part of his army useless and if you deploy together on the other flank you hopefully can make an easy sweep of it before he can reposition. another character that i think gets overlooked is drazhar, put him in a mandrake squad and that squad will be very very hard to root out or kill it will make units that would normally be glad to assault them back off, better yet put lady malys in there as well and watch the squad gang bang even the " mighty" grey knights.

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    I am thinking along your lines about the Mandrakes, I like them and I want to use them. But I have to recognize that that their coolest ability (blaze) ain't really compatible with their most useful one (infiltrate) because of the pain token required for it to be active, and to be honest, they are too weak for me to consider them as an infiltrating CC squad. SO, what I want from is to start with a heamonculus, which boost a little bit their price tag, but they do benefit from 2 great abilities because of it.

    The main problem about deploying into your deployment zone is that cover/area terrain might not be ideal for their 18'' reach, and with the points invested in a single unit (around 210 with the Haemonculus), you want them to get in the fight as soon as possible, so I thought of this : use them in conjuncture with an Harlequin squad with a Shadow Seer. For 160 pts, you get 5 with 2x Fusion pistols, kisses and Shadow Seer. Simply put the Mandrake behind them and you now got mobile cover providing a 3+ cover save combined with a 4+ FNP !

    But what's really great about this combination of units is that they really complement each other very well. Harlies get to kill heavily armored elites, and some tank hunting, while Mandrakes are all about the high number of shots and attacks !

    I have doubts about their resilience though, so I<d like to know what you think about it yourself !

    For my part, I thought of this : Harlies hiding Mandrakes hiding Hellions wit Baron hiding my vehicles ! Not enough terrain ? I've got my own first turn 4+ cover saves supplier !

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    I am thinking along your lines about the Mandrakes, I like them and I want to use them. But I have to recognize that that their coolest ability (blaze) ain't really compatible with their most useful one (infiltrate) because of the pain token required for it to be active, and to be honest, they are too weak for me to consider them as an infiltrating CC squad. SO, what I want from is to start with a heamonculus, which boost a little bit their price tag, but they do benefit from 2 great abilities because of it.

    The main problem about deploying into your deployment zone is that cover/area terrain might not be ideal for their 18'' reach, and with the points invested in a single unit (around 210 with the Haemonculus), you want them to get in the fight as soon as possible, so I thought of this : use them in conjuncture with an Harlequin squad with a Shadow Seer. For 160 pts, you get 5 with 2x Fusion pistols, kisses and Shadow Seer. Simply put the Mandrake behind them and you now got mobile cover providing a 3+ cover save combined with a 4+ FNP !

    But what's really great about this combination of units is that they really complement each other very well. Harlies get to kill heavily armored elites, and some tank hunting, while Mandrakes are all about the high number of shots and attacks !

    I have doubts about their resilience though, so I<d like to know what you think about it yourself !

    For my part, I thought of this : Harlies hiding Mandrakes hiding Hellions wit Baron hiding my vehicles ! Not enough terrain ? I've got my own first turn 4+ cover saves supplier !

  6. #5
    Senior Member False Son's Avatar
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    Well. I was thinking about the Court and i think i'm actually sold for two reasons:

    1. Lady Malys can take a Court without it eating an elite slot, thus more Mandrakes.
    2. The mandatory 1+ for each kind of model seems like it sucks, but then i remembered how much i like flexibility, and the Court certainly has that in spades. The only one i can't really figure out is the Lhamaen. Sure, 2+ to wound attacks are nice, and turning a splinter pistol into a functional Stinger Pistol is cool... but i don't see how it helps the weapons of the Archon. It seems like a weird thing to include, as the only poisoned weapons an Archon can even have for CC are Venom Blades. Something i missed?

    As far as Mandrakes, i've had superb results using them either as a bait unit or as an outflanker. True, the real bang comes from the pain token, but i am considering a Chronos or two since i haven't seen those used often, either. Just you basic Mandrake makes a good unit to draw attention or hold an objective in cover, which is weird because the lack of grenades hinders their ability to assault other units in cover, oh well.

    Lady Malys with Court... maybe a Raider.
    So 3x units of Mandrakes
    At least 2 Chronos
    Got one unit of 6 Khymera/3 Clawed Fiends and 6 beastmasters.
    Not sure how to bulk out the troops. Wyches might work.
    Stab it, slash it, bite, tank shock and smash it. If that fails, shoot it.

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    Slave to the flesh The_Outsider's Avatar
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    The lhamaen works because she is absolutely dirt cheap - plus the venom blade is simply insane for its value (until you hit 3+ saves and/or feel no pain on 4+ armour it'll pretty much outstrip the agoniser for damage:cost). Another overlooked factor is she is one of two LD9 models in the unit - a very important feature if the squad is running solo.

    That said her mistress of poisons rule is totally useless (oh noes my 2+ pistol on a unit with fleet). Hmm actually looking at it the unit has a fairly decent shooting damage (medusae help a lot) so this does make the court one of the few truly generalist units in the codex.

  8. #7
    Senior Member False Son's Avatar
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    Exactly. The first thought most new DE players have is "how many Ur-Ghouls can i jam in there?" before seeing the 1+ part. I actually think it goes well with both the basic archon's ability to kit out (HQ with a Blaster, anyone?) or Malys's already so-so CC ability, she's not going to move mountains, just be a troubleshooter. Combined with the slighty shooting abilities of Medusae, Sslyth and Lhamaens it works.

    Still, what CC weapons does Mistress of Posion work on?
    Stab it, slash it, bite, tank shock and smash it. If that fails, shoot it.

  9. #8
    Senior Member nigelboyette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by False Son View Post
    Exactly. The first thought most new DE players have is "how many Ur-Ghouls can i jam in there?" before seeing the 1+ part. I actually think it goes well with both the basic archon's ability to kit out (HQ with a Blaster, anyone?) or Malys's already so-so CC ability, she's not going to move mountains, just be a troubleshooter. Combined with the slighty shooting abilities of Medusae, Sslyth and Lhamaens it works.

    Still, what CC weapons does Mistress of Posion work on?
    if the Lhamaens made the squads shooting weapons poison 2+ then id be sold.. alas they don't. they only make the archons pistol if he has one a 2+. there mistress of poison special rule works on nothing but herself and the archon. i just dont like the look of the court and the only reason i wont take it is the bum rule with the Lhamaens ( im protesting here). having said that it may be different for others and i would love to see someone field a court. if you go malys and an archon thats fine but dont discount drazhar. his rules may look ho hum without a squad of incubi but hes a killing monster that is almost invulnerable in combat. i would highly recommend trying him out in a few games.

  10. #9
    Senior Member dizzie's Avatar
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    I really don't see whats so wrong with the lhamean,for the point cost, you get a 2+ poison shooting attack on both the archon and lhamean and it also gets 2+ to wound with its HTH attacks, pointwise its excellent for what you get. I think the main issue with the court is that people are fielding the archon elsewhere.

    the squad does compliment the archon extremely well, possibly too well, you would expect to kill a squad while shooting and then charging. its difficult to judge the medusea in this squad as its a mixed bag of tricks, it could be extremely good or bad so its difficult to see mathhammer wise how effective the squad is.
    however i'm going to give it a go.

    the squad is:
    medusea x2
    Lhamean x1
    sslyth x3
    ur-ghuls x3
    archon and agoniser :

    ok so kills through shooting on MEQ:
    medusea: difficult to judge i'm gonna say they get 2 kills, altough they have the potential to wipe the squad them selves

    To wound:
    Lhmean: 0.55
    sslyth: 3
    ur-ghuls: 0
    archon: 0.69

    so 1.49 marines dead, total of 3.49 dead, even with the bum deal on medusea this isn't so bad. the potential is alot higher though

    then comes the charge to wound.
    medusea x2: 0.66
    Lhamean x1: 1.25
    sslyth x3: 5
    ur-ghuls x3: 3.75
    archon and agoniser : 2 kills( agoniser kills not wounds, also not including drugs)

    therefore to conclude 5.55

    so a grand total of 9.04 with the chance of the powerfist gone too from the squad.
    not exactly what we want to do, we would prefer to wipe the squad in the opponents turn.

    losing the archon and including an extra ur-ghul its slightly different.
    we get a total of 7.15 dead MEQ. the squad on its own is pretty good. One point i would like to make is the Lhamean is better than an ur-ghul, against anything t4+ its superior, against t3 and under the ur-ghul shines(when does this really happen?), you still have a poison shooting attack too to boot, so its cheaper and performs better(not including archon shooting)

    Now before people start correcting my data, there are some factors we could not inlcude, the mudusea abviously and the archons drugs, one other point is on the urghuls codex etry its says claws and needle teeth, i have included this as two HTH weapons, this is iffy but thats how i'm counting it. My other conlucion is that an archon is really not needed in this squad, this squad can hold its own against high T targets too, My advise would be to take 2 Lhameans and save a few points over the urghuls, weirdly they perform better mathhammer wise.

    Something else i noticed and i have not seen mentioned is the squad can take a venom, perhaps 2 medusea, Lhamean, sslyth and urghul, could be a neat combo on a venom? it would be nice to have 3 sslyth and 2 medusea in this venom would'nt it
    Last edited by dizzie; September 14th, 2011 at 01:31.
    If you're always worried about crushing the ants beneath you...you won't be able to walk.

  11. #10
    Slave to the flesh The_Outsider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dizzie View Post
    then comes the charge to wound.
    medusea x2: 0.66
    Lhamean x1: 1.25
    sslyth x3: 5
    ur-ghuls x3: 3.75
    archon and agoniser : 2 kills( agoniser kills not wounds, also not including drugs)
    Assuming this maths is correct the lhamean has the second highest damage output of the court members (the top one being the sslyth) - this is especially important given the sslyth is 3.5 times her cost.

    I do remember people initially writing the court off because you have to take "useless" models (read: medusae and lhamean) but the actual number crunching behind it shows that the lhamean is possibly the most powerful member of the court. You should always take two simply for the ability to wound anything for so cheaply, 10 points a model that is basically a warrior with 10 points of gear virtually for free (lets say her mistress of pain costs 1 point) is pure insanity. It is the same reason why scourges are really good - they are cheaper than the gear they come with.

    While I do not use it a lot in my army (i'm old school) the venom blade is actually one of the most powerful CC weapons in the game for cost - just because it doesn't deny armour doesn't make it crap.

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