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  1. #1
    Senior Member Astantia's Avatar
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    Stealth Team as Markerlight Squad

    How do people feel about using Stealth Suits just as Markerlight Drone Controllers. I know they are expensive, but it could possibly be a way to justify using one of the most beautiful models in the range. So here's my quick analysis, please correct me if I've forgotten something.


    Pathfinders:
    + - Minimum Squad: 128 Points / 4 Markerlights (32 pts / light)
    + - Maximum: 246 Points / 10 Markerlights (24.6 pts / light) (8 Pathfinders; teamleader with Marker drones)
    - - Networked Markerlights: Generally, no. Specially, yes.
    - - Maneuverability: On foot, can use Devilfish transport, can infiltrate, may not move and mark
    - - Resiliency: 4+ / - / Cover if used; 7-8 Leadership
    + - Secondary Utility: Pulse Carbines / Rail rifles (at added cost)
    + - FOC: Fast Attack (Piranha Slots)


    Stealth Team:
    - - Minimum Squad: 180 Points / 3 Markerlights (60 pts / light) (can add up to 3 drones at +30 each)
    - - Maximum Squad: 540 Points / 12 Markerlights (45 pts / light)
    + - Networked Markerlights: All
    + - Maneuverability: Jump Infantry (Jetpack) JSJ, Infiltrate, Deepstrike, may move and mark
    + - Resiliency: 3+ / - / Cover if used; JSJ; 8 Leadership; option to swap for shield drones
    - - Secondary Utility: Burst Cannons / Fusion Blaster (at added cost)
    - - FOC: Elites (Crisis Slots)


    So pathfinders have some definite pluses, mostly in the areas of 'efficiency' and 'oh dear god I have to give up crisis suits in order to field this?!' areas, but Stealth teams definitely pick up some points in the fact that they can JSJ with markerlights. The secondary weapons options both have merits, Rail rifles being an anti-MEQ weapon, while the Fusion blaster is capable of popping armor, but the Burst cannons and the Pulse rifles are both pretty meh in my book. I think if I had an army list built around guaranteeing markerlight coverage, I would use stealth teams. But in every other instance (read: most every time I play) I will stick to Pathfinders.

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    Senior Member SavageConvoy's Avatar
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    One thing you didn't meantion was that the Devilfish you get from pathfinders goes right to our Firewarriors, making the initial point sink mean a bit more.

    Also drones rely on the drone controller. So for every wound you take you have to allocate it to drones first or risk losing the drones and the suit to one wound.

    And if you want to use just the marker drones, you could always just tack them onto a commander and bodyguard. They keep the ability to JSJ, can boost the suits they are with (With actual firepower), and don't make a huge sink on an otherwise pointless unit.

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    I used a stealth marker team for a while near the end of 4th edition 40K and at the very beginning of 5th edition 40K. I liked them at the time, but it took only the release of the 5e versions of Space Marines and IG to convince me that there is simply no room to spare in the Elites slot. Everything has to be Crisis Suits. I wish it were otherwise. I too actually really really like the XV25 models -- I have them all painted up and everything -- but they never see the gaming table any more. I just can't afford to NOT take XV8s....
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    Son of LO Marnepup's Avatar
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    It's not entirely an unreasonable proposition. You can't really count the required devilfish against the cost of the pathfinders, since, as mentioned, that generally goes straight to the required fire warriors. So I base my analysis on the 96 points that you pay without the fish (if you're taking pathfinders, they're so fragile that you HAVE TO TAKE THE MAX if you want to have any left after turn one shooting)...

    If you've filled all of your elites slots with crisis suits, the first cost is 30 points to elevate one of the crisis teams to bodyguard status, leaving 66 points...

    The base is 90 points for three stealth suits before you've taken a single light...putting you in a 24 point hole from the start. Add 15 points to give a light to the team leader (always do this, it's cheaper than a drone for the same effect!), and then it's 30 points a pop per drone...

    The obvious consequence of going with SMT instead of pathfinders is that you get fewer markerlights at greater expense...

    That of course means that they'll be a lot harder for the enemy to kill, but you'll have fewer of them to start, forcing you to use them a little differently. You can't think in terms of "I'm gonna get four hits, so I'll use them to reduce cover to zero and boost BS by a point." You have to be a lot more selective in your targeting with the lights, and live with more limited effects (you'll get 1-2 hits, not 3-5), so you'll almost exclusively be using them to boost BS. The flip side is that you'll probably still have that resource at the end of the game, and I can't count the number of games that have turned on the destruction or survival (not just in tau-involved games!) of a single unit. You know, where you think "If I can just kill that dreadnought that's contesting my objective I win" or "I'm behind by one kill point, so I need to kill off that remnant squad over there to force a draw." In that situation, we all remember the countless times where all three twinlinked lascannons whiff against the dreadnought, or you stun it three times, or the remnant squad goes to ground and a single model survives everything you throw at it. In those situations, a couple of markerlights make an enormous difference. With pathfinders, your chances of having any markerlights at the end of the game are none and noner...but with SMT, the enemy really has to divert from his true objective and devote a ton of combat power to hunting them down, or else you're pretty well guaranteed to have the markerlights survive the entire game.

    So, relative to a pathfinder team that will give you a crapton (overkill, really, against most targets on turn one!) of markerlight hits on turn one, but won't live to see turn three, a down payment of 24 points before you've taken your first markerlight (I generally take three....one on the team leader, and two on drones he controls with a hardwired controller, so I don't have to spend points filling the optional hard points), isn't that bad an idea... IF you are able to choose their targets wisely... it's not at all points-efficient, which is the best reason NOT to take one, but it has the flexibility to make ANYTHING in your army better at the critical point in the game. Sure, for the ~200 points you're spending for three markerlights, you could buy more crisis suits, or more broadsides, or more pirhana, or, or, or....if you only look at one unit that the lights might help out, it's more effective to just get more of that kind of unit...but you only get to spend that 200 points once.

    What you're buying isn't "better BS for a crisis team," you're buying the flexibility to improve the BS of any one unit you like at any given time. Therefore, comparing the improved BS provided by three markerlights to one crisis team against the alternative of purchasing another crisis team is deeply flawed. You'd have to divide the cost of the SMT equally amongst all the units they're likely to support and see whether that lesser point value per unit type buys you enough additional shots to be more efficient than fielding the markerlights. Say, one each additional pirhana, BASS, and fireknife? Is an additional pirhana going to achieve more hits in a critical situation than markerlight support for your existing pirhana would? What's going to get you more rolls on the pen table, two broadsides with markerlight support, or three broadsides without? Are three fireknife suits with markerlight support going to kill more marines than four fireknife suits would without that support? The answer has to go against the markerlights in at least two, if not all three, cases, before they start to become a marginal choice.

    Personally, I think tau get by just fine without markerlights. However, assuming that you are going to take markerlights at all, SMT is superior to pathfinders in two very important ways. First, tau make a very poor static army. And of all the units that are accepted as "worth taking" from the tau codex, pathfinders have the distinction of being the only one that can't do its job on the move. Once you plop them down, they either die in place or, once they start moving to evade melee, they aren't doing anything useful. Everything else can shoot on the move. From that perspective, they're an achilles heel for your army in that they make you draw a line in the sand and defend a static position, which simplifies things for the enemy. The other thing is even worse. They can be seen from infinitely far away, and only have carapace armor to protect them against enemy fire. So even if they start running away to try to stay out of charge range, they just end up getting shot in the back as they flee. Stealth teams can illuminate targets on the move, can do so from farther away than most anything can see them, and have better saves to boot. In every way imaginable, they're superior to pathfinders.

    You don't need markerlights, but if you take them, SMT is a better choice than pathfinders.
    IG since 1999 __ DA since 2002 __ Tau since 2005 __ SoB since 2007
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    Senior Member Astantia's Avatar
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    Very well reasoned, but just to emphasize, in your example, you say 'reduce cover to zero and improve BS by one,' but that's assuming that you have 8 pathfinders. Assuming an experienced opponent, pathfinders are killed off pretty quickly. Stealth teams are ridiculously more survivable, and as you said, (typically) require an opponent to devote attention to them, which improves surviability of everything else on the field. With the added mobility, I gotta say, i dont think ill ever take Pathfinders under these rulesets again.
    Gareth is the person I try to impress when I convert and paint.

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    Son of LO Marnepup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astantia View Post
    but that's assuming that you have 8 pathfinders.
    I agree! The only time you'll have 8 pathfinders is on turn one...by turn two, call it 0-5, and don't count on having any after that.
    IG since 1999 __ DA since 2002 __ Tau since 2005 __ SoB since 2007
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    Senior Member Astantia's Avatar
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    Agreed. So, this might be crazy, but I'm thinking of doing the following:

    Dropping two Deathrain crisis teams, using the slots for 2 stealth teams (in order to spread markerlove to as many enemy units as possible.)
    Dropping my pathfinder squads for piranha squads with Seeker missiles.


    Reasoning: Stealth teams are just as or more survivable than Deathrain suits. They are differently missioned, but with Markerlights, they fulfill two missions, the first being anti-horde (just in case, I can't remember the last time I was playing against a non-Meq army) but their second mission is to infiltrate and tag enemy targets of opportunity for Piranha and Railhead seeker missiles to demolish. What do I gain:

    Mobile markerlights
    Resilient markerlights
    Greater effective range on seeker missiles vs. deathrain suits
    Due to seeker missile unlimited range and no-LOS requirements, great access to enemy rear and side armor
    Piranha Fusion blasters provide anti-heavy armor
    Piranha gundrones provide blocking assault screen
    The only 'static' unit in my list (pathfinders) is effectively replaced

    What do I lose:
    A lot of points
    Battlesuit spam 'fear factor.' losing 2 Deathrain Crisis teams in my standard 2500 list, leaves me with 2 Fireknife commanders and bodyguards and 1 Fireknife crisis team)
    Pathfinder Devilfish Ability
    Pathfinder 'fire magnet' attribute



    Does anybody know anything I am missing or forgetting?
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    The deep down truth Rikimaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marnepup View Post
    It's not entirely an unreasonable proposition. You can't really count the required devilfish against the cost of the pathfinders, since, as mentioned, that generally goes straight to the required fire warriors. So I base my analysis on the 96 points that you pay without the fish (if you're taking pathfinders, they're so fragile that you HAVE TO TAKE THE MAX if you want to have any left after turn one shooting)...

    If you've filled all of your elites slots with crisis suits, the first cost is 30 points to elevate one of the crisis teams to bodyguard status, leaving 66 points...

    The base is 90 points for three stealth suits before you've taken a single light...putting you in a 24 point hole from the start. Add 15 points to give a light to the team leader (always do this, it's cheaper than a drone for the same effect!), and then it's 30 points a pop per drone...

    The obvious consequence of going with SMT instead of pathfinders is that you get fewer markerlights at greater expense...

    That of course means that they'll be a lot harder for the enemy to kill, but you'll have fewer of them to start, forcing you to use them a little differently. You can't think in terms of "I'm gonna get four hits, so I'll use them to reduce cover to zero and boost BS by a point." You have to be a lot more selective in your targeting with the lights, and live with more limited effects (you'll get 1-2 hits, not 3-5), so you'll almost exclusively be using them to boost BS. The flip side is that you'll probably still have that resource at the end of the game, and I can't count the number of games that have turned on the destruction or survival (not just in tau-involved games!) of a single unit. You know, where you think "If I can just kill that dreadnought that's contesting my objective I win" or "I'm behind by one kill point, so I need to kill off that remnant squad over there to force a draw." In that situation, we all remember the countless times where all three twinlinked lascannons whiff against the dreadnought, or you stun it three times, or the remnant squad goes to ground and a single model survives everything you throw at it. In those situations, a couple of markerlights make an enormous difference. With pathfinders, your chances of having any markerlights at the end of the game are none and noner...but with SMT, the enemy really has to divert from his true objective and devote a ton of combat power to hunting them down, or else you're pretty well guaranteed to have the markerlights survive the entire game.

    So, relative to a pathfinder team that will give you a crapton (overkill, really, against most targets on turn one!) of markerlight hits on turn one, but won't live to see turn three, a down payment of 24 points before you've taken your first markerlight (I generally take three....one on the team leader, and two on drones he controls with a hardwired controller, so I don't have to spend points filling the optional hard points), isn't that bad an idea... IF you are able to choose their targets wisely... it's not at all points-efficient, which is the best reason NOT to take one, but it has the flexibility to make ANYTHING in your army better at the critical point in the game. Sure, for the ~200 points you're spending for three markerlights, you could buy more crisis suits, or more broadsides, or more pirhana, or, or, or....if you only look at one unit that the lights might help out, it's more effective to just get more of that kind of unit...but you only get to spend that 200 points once.

    What you're buying isn't "better BS for a crisis team," you're buying the flexibility to improve the BS of any one unit you like at any given time. Therefore, comparing the improved BS provided by three markerlights to one crisis team against the alternative of purchasing another crisis team is deeply flawed. You'd have to divide the cost of the SMT equally amongst all the units they're likely to support and see whether that lesser point value per unit type buys you enough additional shots to be more efficient than fielding the markerlights. Say, one each additional pirhana, BASS, and fireknife? Is an additional pirhana going to achieve more hits in a critical situation than markerlight support for your existing pirhana would? What's going to get you more rolls on the pen table, two broadsides with markerlight support, or three broadsides without? Are three fireknife suits with markerlight support going to kill more marines than four fireknife suits would without that support? The answer has to go against the markerlights in at least two, if not all three, cases, before they start to become a marginal choice.

    Personally, I think tau get by just fine without markerlights. However, assuming that you are going to take markerlights at all, SMT is superior to pathfinders in two very important ways. First, tau make a very poor static army. And of all the units that are accepted as "worth taking" from the tau codex, pathfinders have the distinction of being the only one that can't do its job on the move. Once you plop them down, they either die in place or, once they start moving to evade melee, they aren't doing anything useful. Everything else can shoot on the move. From that perspective, they're an achilles heel for your army in that they make you draw a line in the sand and defend a static position, which simplifies things for the enemy. The other thing is even worse. They can be seen from infinitely far away, and only have carapace armor to protect them against enemy fire. So even if they start running away to try to stay out of charge range, they just end up getting shot in the back as they flee. Stealth teams can illuminate targets on the move, can do so from farther away than most anything can see them, and have better saves to boot. In every way imaginable, they're superior to pathfinders.

    You don't need markerlights, but if you take them, SMT is a better choice than pathfinders.
    Wow someone has no idea how to use Pathfinders. You are so far out on Pathfinders it is almost funny. All I ever hear over and over again is "Pathfinders die quick", yeah they do if you have no idea how to use them. Lets look at the usual way most Tau players play them. Take one full unit and place them in a place where they think they will get LOS. So what are you doing here? You are basically putting the Pathfinders on a platter for your opponent, well done.

    OK so how do we play Pathfinders? Well as pointed out here full units are overkill, 8 Markerlights will usually give you 5 tokens and you more often than not will not use them all against one target unit, so take smaller units. I take two 6 man units, this is a good balance as it gives you enough ML tokens (usually 3-4), makes the unit hard to hide (hence more survivable), being easier to hide means they can use more forms of cover and can be positioned a lot more easily in tactically advantageous positions and 6 gives you soem decent casualty absorbing.

    Now here is the single most important thing regarding the use of Pathfinders 'multiple markerlight sources", I take three sources of ML's in my army (two 6 man PF squads and a Skyray). if my opponent wants to stop my markerlights he has to stop three units, two of which will be in cover and one is an AV13 vehicle. Taking out three units is hard, very hard but more importantly if six or seven of his units are firing at my ML units then my fiire-power units are not taking fire, if they do not fire at my ML units then I get ML tokens to make the firepower units that survive more efficient, either way I win.

    There is also the fact that most players do not see the tactical advantages of Pathfinder units. So opponents hate Pathfinders, well use that to your advantage, deploy them to your advantage as distraction units to draw the opponent to parts of the field you want them in (to lure them to fire lanes, to pull the enemy away from objectives and, to take enemy fire away from valuable units etc).

    The point is PF units are not a must keep alive at all costs unit, which is the trap most Tau players fall into with them. PF units are quite often best used as sacrificial units to pull the enemy where you want them or to save another unit or as pure fire-power/assault units, many times I have hit a unit with carbines and then assaulting to hold up enemy units. The main key though is never take just one unit, three units means three enemy units targeted by ML's (four with the Skyray's ability to split fire), three units means survivability and longevity (I have never finished a game with my present list without ML's ever). Finally two units means two Devilfish for the Fire Warrior squads.

    Marne said PF can't do their job if they move, well depends on what you define as their job. I personally move my PF units a lot especially from turn two, why? Because moving a PF unit to a part of the field can make an opponent focus on that part of the field. PF's have guns, so why not use them, they can move and shoot them so use them. Yeah their main role is as ML units and if you can use them in that role then do so but they are not set in stone ML units. Tau players should stop being so short sighted and blinkered in regards to PF's.

    My Pathfinders always provide a valuable contribution to my games, the ML's make my alpha strike capability much more devastating, they make cover a much less reliable resource for the opponent and they are a fabulous distraction unit, I for one would not take a list without them.

    As for Stealth's well simple fact is the more you take the less XV8's you can't and that is NEVER any good. Less XV8's means less wins, simple as that.
    1984

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    Son of LO Marnepup's Avatar
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    Of course pathfinders can be used as decoys, but in a thread about SMTs, I'd say that their use as markerlighting units is probably more relevant...

    As for Stealth's well simple fact is the more you take the less XV8's you can't and that is NEVER any good.
    Unless you have five crisis teams, that's simply not true...they don't push crisis teams out of your list, they push them from elites to HQ, adding 10 points per model to their cost, of course, but NOT preventing you from taking them!


    Less XV8's means less wins, simple as that.
    Not sure I agree with that except in the sense that in general "less stuff means less wins".
    IG since 1999 __ DA since 2002 __ Tau since 2005 __ SoB since 2007
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    The deep down truth Rikimaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marnepup View Post
    Of course pathfinders can be used as decoys, but in a thread about SMTs, I'd say that their use as markerlighting units is probably more relevant...
    Well seeing as the the thread author directly compared the two and you piped up with your opinion about Pathfinders which included a lot of inaccurate and clichéd views about PF units, I thought it best to actually dismiss the inaccurate, clichés you raised about Pathfinders. My post discussed how the perception that PF teams are fragile and short lived is inaccurate if you know what you are doing. Your opinion is that Pathfinders are an achilles heel for Tau and this is just plain wrong. it is patently obvious you have no real idea how to play pathfinders other than the same old clichéd opinions I always hear, "pathfinders can't move", "pathfinders die" blah blah blah.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marnepup View Post
    Unless you have five crisis teams, that's simply not true...they don't push crisis teams out of your list, they push them from elites to HQ, adding 10 points per model to their cost, of course, but NOT preventing you from taking them!
    You should have five teams, you should already have 2 teams of HQ XV8's anyway AND three XV8 elite teams minimum. I take eleven XV8's and wish I could take more. In 5th with the preponderance of fast armies and vehicle heavy lists Tau have to inflict damage fast and accurately. If you cannot stop vehicles especially transports then you lose, simple as that, if you cannot stop the opponents anti tank and heavy weapons then you will find it very challenging to win. The only real resources we have to take down vehicles and heavy stuff in an accurate and timely fashion is XV8's, the heavy options helped by markerlights.

    Please tell me genius how taking an expensive unit of Stealth's with a couple of ML's in place of say a unit of Deathrains will help take down vehicles? Tell me how the Stealth with their burst cannons (if you are taking Stealth ML units then you are not taking Fusion) are going to help take down armour? If you take one unit of stealth's with two ML Drones you are paying 153 points minimum, for 159 I can get three TA equipped Deathrains, hmmmm which shall I choose, especially since I have 12 Markerlights anyway that are NOT taking up valuable elite slots.

    I can tell you how my list with its two PF teams, Skyray, two BS5 XV9 HQ and 9 other XV8's all with missile pods (BS4 twin linked x 2 and 4 at BS4) performs, it performs well because it is not compromised in any way is how. I do not lose any XV8's to take a few ML's, no what I get is 12 ML's in three units that help my XV8 and other firepower units perform to their maximum potential.

    I am showing how building a list properly and not relying on gimmicks wins games. If you think compromising on XV8 numbers wins games then please show us exactly how, just what do you take in place of those missile pods and Plasma's to reliably kill vehicles etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by Marnepup View Post
    Not sure I agree with that except in the sense that in general "less stuff means less wins".
    Don't really care if you agree or not, it is true either way. If you take less XV8's you will find it harder to take down vehicles, monstrous creatures, tough units like Termies. XV units are the only real resource we have for taking medium strength, decent range weapons, we have no heavy weapon/melta type weapon options for our infantry and our fast attack slots are light on hard hitting units (yes we know Piranhas have fusion but they are not a replacement for the XV or Railgun, they are a compliment to them).
    We can take ML's in the fast attack slot so why compromise the most important part of the army by taking Stealth's with ML's. Stealth's simply do not fit in 5th, it is a shame but it is the way it is.
    I loved the idea of mobile, stealth field shielded markerligths when 5th first appeared and I even converted a few Gun Drones as ML Drones bit they simply did not add enough to the army but I sure as hell missed the XV8's I gave up to take them. My 12 stealth suits are gathering dust in a cupboard and will do so unless the new codex radically changes them.
    If you want Markerlights in your army then there is no reason to not take Pathfinder units and many good reasons not to take Stealth ML teams.
    1984

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