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Since Wraiths are selling at ridiculous prices on Ebay I was considering buying a C'tan instead, for when I buy my next batch of models to bring my army up to 1,000 points. So, I have a bunch of questions about them!
1) Does anyone use them?
2) Are they worth their points?
3) What are their best roles on the battlefield?
4) Is 1,000 points too small an army to include one?
5) Which of our units would they have good synergy with? (scarabs look good to me, for their Entropic Strike ability)
I have never played 40k before but I understand that Monstrous Creatures are especially good at taking down tanks and since they don't allow armour saves they would also be great against Terminators and the like. Since Necrons (aside from a few things) don't seem especially gifted in close combat if I was to include a C'tan I was thinking of gearing him towards close combat, specifically for taking on Terminators and other space marines (my friends will have Dark Angels and Chaos Space Marines).
Swarm of Spirit Dust and Transdimensional Thunderbolt was one combo I was thinking of - can kill Terminators and Tanks at range as well as up close. The other was Swarm of Spirit Dust and Gaze of Death to make him really nasty in assault (?). Both set ups are quite expensive and I am not certain if they are worth it as I have yet to actually play a game.
The three of us have some practice games arranged for tomorrow - should be fun
Thanks in advance for any and all replies!
I've been thinking of running a "beatstick" c'tan. Moulder of Worlds + Pyreshards. I think it would be a good pairing for a triarch stalker.
C'tan shards are beatsticks with utility. Find enemy units that don't have powerfists and assault them.
Last edited by Arandmoor; December 3rd, 2011 at 03:46.
Wake. Rise. Destroy. Conquer.
We have done so once. We will do so again.
No2) Are they worth their points?Writhing Worldscape: A good ability. I'm not going to touch the tremorstave debate at all with this (take it to another thread, people).3) What are their best roles on the battlefield?
Entropic Touch: Meh
Gaze of Death: Actually this one isn't bad....getting into CC without being shot up is the trick, though. But this is also the most expensive power....ouch
Grand Illusion: It okay. Mostly used to bait opponents in to deploying in a certain way....but against most good or competitve players this won't work. Also very expensive.
Lord of Fire: Sweet so you might kill one model with a decent gun if you haven’t been dropped by lascannon, autocannon, and missile fire. In an edition where melta is king this seems like a great ability.....but honestly not fantastic.
Moulder of Worlds: Meh
Pyreshards: Actually this one also isn't too bad...but you're paying a lot of points for some souped-up lasgun shots.
Sentient Singularity: Honestly if enemy vehicles are that close to you either the enemy did something very wrong our you are about to die. And the DS is a bit useless and no one in their right minds is going to deepstrike that close to him anyway. Might be useful to keep enemies from DSing meltaguns near your vehicles....but why the heck are you spending 215+ points on DS defense? It also doesn't work if the enemy lands outside the ability range and scatters closer.
Swarm of Spirit Dust: Well you already are immune to difficult and dangerous terrain so why do the assault grenades matter. And seriously if an enemy is assaulting you they are probably very, very confident they will win so the defensive grenades will probably be moot. Also no way a model that size is going to be getting a cover save in 99% of games so stealth is most likely also moot.
Times Arrow: Ehh, can be useful, but most models you'll be targetting will be I4 or I5 anyway. Only Tau, Nid MCs, and other Necrons (which will get their RP roll anyway) are going to be scarred of this.
Transdimensional Thunderbolt: Oh look, a lascannon! It's not like you can get them for only 60 points somewhere else......oh.....whoops.
I guess if you really want him the following builds are best:
Writhing Worldscape + Pyreshards (235 points...ouch)
Lord of Fire + Gaze of Death (245 points....ouch)
Grand Illusion + Shards (240 points....ouch)
You know if they cost about 80-100 points less and duplicates of abilities (multiple C'tan) could be taken....maybe.God no. Tying up 25% of your army in one model is a bad idea.4) Is 1,000 points too small an army to include one?Well Writhing Worldscape works with just about everything. But honestly they don't really have synergy with much out there....maybe wraiths (as S8 shots will be wanting to target both wraiths and the C'tan), but C'tan aren't fast enough to keep up.5) Which of our units would they have good synergy with? (scarabs look good to me, for their Entropic Strike ability)
Really the best abilities you get are army-wide support abilities (Writhing, Illusion, Lord of Fire, Singularity) and all require you to stay near your army and trying to move up into CC.Problem is you have to get to them first. The C'tan isn't fast enough or survivable enough to pull that off. Ask any nid player out there (I also play nids). A single MC isn't very difficult to kill.....and nids have faster, cheaper ones that are more survivable.I have never played 40k before but I understand that Monstrous Creatures are especially good at taking down tanks and since they don't allow armour saves they would also be great against Terminators and the like.Space Marines aren't anything special, just shoot them a bunch and the will die (Necrons have medium strength anti-infantry in droves so that shouldn't be an issue). Terminators are annoying, but as always they will fall to torrent of fire and you have better units out there that can tie termies up (wraiths, lychguard).Since Necrons (aside from a few things) don't seem especially gifted in close combat if I was to include a C'tan I was thinking of gearing him towards close combat, specifically for taking on Terminators and other space marines (my friends will have Dark Angels and Chaos Space Marines).
Don't think of C'tan as CC beat-sticks. They are best used as supporting units. Lychguard would be a much better hammer unit.A single lascannon ( a 45 point one at that) is very laughable. Spirit Dust is cheaper(ish) at least, but as I spelled out above it really doesn't help you much.Swarm of Spirit Dust and Transdimensional Thunderbolt was one combo I was thinking of - can kill Terminators and Tanks at range as well as up close.Gaze and Lord of Fire would probably work better.The other was Swarm of Spirit Dust and Gaze of Death to make him really nasty in assault (?). Both set ups are quite expensive and I am not certain if they are worth it as I have yet to actually play a game.
Honestly my overall opinion of C'tan are: They were mediocre in the last codex and they suck in this one. Like I said if they drop about 80 points in price then I might consider them.
I disagree with much of what was said above. I will admit that a C'Tan is probably not the most competitive option, but it sure as heck isn't bad. I'll do a rundown on what I think of the powers:
Entropic Touch: I actually don't see much of a point to this power. I guess it helps with AV 14, but not that great
Gaze: great ability that is appropriately costed. It's no sure bet that it will keep him alive, but it helps some, as well as allows him to munch through tarpits pretty quickly
Illusion: I can see it being useful in overloading a single point on the line. I think it will get the most use moving units in and out of reserve, however
Lord of Fire: Another great ability, not because it will actually kill very many models, but because it makes you opponent second guess firing those weapons anywhere near him, and may well encourage him to the C'Tan all together
Moulder of Worlds: It's good for taking down Orks and Guardsmen, but other than that, it's somewhat lackluster. Still, you can never have too many Large Blasts
Pyreshards: I just wish it were longer range. It's not bad, it's cheap, and is great for hunting small squads or solo characters like St Celestein (sp)
Singularity: This is not one that I am fond of either
Spirit Dust: It's not that hard to get this guy a cover save. any of the two story ruins will do it, a Ghost ark can do it; provided that you play with any decent sized terrain the Stealth helps. As for the Grenades, eh, the defensive ones help, but but not huge. But it's comparatively cheap, and Stealth isn't that hard
Time's Arrow: This one is actually great, especially if you play against Orks. The greatest strength of a Mob of Boyz is the power Klaw with the 30 ablaitive wounds. Time's Arrow gives you a way to snipe out that Klaw before it gets a chance to swing.
Thunderbolt: I'm not really sold on a single Las Cannon shot either, even if it is at BS 5. I see this more as a way to pop a Nob or Paladin before combat, but it is overly expensive in that role. Other than that, best used to try and crack open a transport before assaulting the contents
Worldscape: Did surprisingly little for me. I don't think that I played with less terrain that most, and I think I played with more than many, but it did very little to slow down the advance of the Black Templars. Granted, this guy always invests heavily in Dozer Blades and such. This could do much more versus a Green Tide army or some such, but should probably be used as a way to slow the enemy down by forcing them to go around terrain, rather than as a killer in and of itself.
As for effective Combos, I think that he works pretty well with Nemesor Zhandrekh because the Nemesor can grant Furious Charge, which allows the C'Tan to swing at Initiative 5, as well as at a Character popping St 8.
As for what combos are best, I think you'll have to base that somewhat on what your army looks like, as well as what your opponent's does. Anyways, I hope that helps at least some
The only real function I can see for C'tan is the "lascannon target". The idea is to bait the enemy into wasting huge amounts of firepower into C'tan while your other units do the actual heavy lifting. In last tournament I ran a very expensive C'tan with Gaze of Death and Time's Arrow in 1000 points. Facing s fully meched up Mephiston army (3 lasplas razorbacks, 2 preds, 1 baal pred, 3 MSU assault squads and Mephiston) I raced the C'tan ahead homing straight towards Mephy and the parking lot while my other units flanked using cover. He was so afraid of losing Mephy on bad dice rolls that he focused all weapons on C'tan and C'tan alone. By the Turn number 4 he had lost baal pred, one lasplas razorback and around half of his assault marines. I had lost C'tan and nothing else. Unfortunately it wasn't kill points, but objective game so I ended in draw.
Revenant Moon Necrons: (W/L/D) 0/1/0 (6th edition: 13/2/2)(5th edition: 14/6/4)(3rd edition Codex: 16/4/7)
XIX Legion: (W/L/D) 0/0/0 (5th edition: 14/12/2)(5th edition Codex: 4/3/0)
Black Legion: (W/L/D) 1/0/0 (6th edition: 2/3/0)
Something Wicked... Reikwald Beastmen: (W/L/D) 10/4/1
I see them with great synergy when character hunting with wraiths. Use a few as a screen then use the whip coils to make them init 1 before time's arrowing them.
“The ultimate philosophical question, “Am I human or machine” is answered by many people, “I don’t care, as long as I am”
- Myron Krueger
How so? I see this guy within melta range and you bet I'll gun for him. At this point he's probably taken a wound or two. Damn straight I'm going to open up on him with my triple-melta squad. Chances are I probably won't even roll a one. And if I do......who cares, I have 13 more.Lord of Fire: Another great ability, not because it will actually kill very many models, but because it makes you opponent second guess firing those weapons anywhere near him, and may well encourage him to the C'Tan all togetherAnd then those 29 orcs just roll through you. Once again you'll probably have lost several wound getting to CC (if not already dead). Heck even if 20 orcs or so get engaged (not unfeasible) then they still have a decent chance of inflicting 3 wounds.Time's Arrow: This one is actually great, especially if you play against Orks. The greatest strength of a Mob of Boyz is the power Klaw with the 30 ablaitive wounds. Time's Arrow gives you a way to snipe out that Klaw before it gets a chance to swing.
Heck something like hormagaunts will just giggle as the C'tan is wiped out. Sure the Necrodermis explosion will wipe out a good number, but their fodder anyway.Good to know, actually. The dozers aren't a common sight usually. How did wrecking/blowing up vehicles work and forcing units to move through their own wrecks work out? Or kitting them through forests/ruins? Some more detail on this would be awesome.Worldscape: Did surprisingly little for me. I don't think that I played with less terrain that most, and I think I played with more than many, but it did very little to slow down the advance of the Black Templars. Granted, this guy always invests heavily in Dozer Blades and such. This could do much more versus a Green Tide army or some such, but should probably be used as a way to slow the enemy down by forcing them to go around terrain, rather than as a killer in and of itself.
I have to disagree as well in that I have found the C'tan extremely useful. Yes, he ties up a chunk of points, but I have never had a problem getting him close enough to the opposing army. His ability to move easily through cover lets me keep him hidden behind terrain until close enough to strike. His Invuln. save, Eternal Warrior, and high Toughness mean that he rarely takes more than a single wound (if any) by the time I get him there.
Honestly, I roll my C'tan with Pyreshards, as mass of fire is wonderful for wearing down a group (or picking it off). Throw in a nasty Assault and whatever he targets is likely going down. I usually fill my second choice with either Gaze of Death or Time's Arrow; the former seems the most useful as, even if you wound on 5's, chances are one is getting through and you're getting some health back. The latter is something new that I'm trying out and haven't really figured out its usefulness, but it seems good on paper.
My C'tans role in my army is definitely to harass and target weak groups. I leave my hammer to a pack of Lychguard, with the C'tan there to just be threatening and draw attention. In all my games I have only had him drop once, and even then he did so after picking apart several groups of infantry and another MC. He has always earned his points back and more.
If you're thinking of fielding a C'tan, focus him as an anti-infantry model that concentrates on weaker groups.
P.S. You'll probably reach CC round 1 or 2 if orks play a Speed Freaks army list.
Last edited by TheNightbringer; December 3rd, 2011 at 18:07.