I just wanted to use a list that was a little more fun to play. I mean it's great to be winning and all but it gets kind of repetitive and boring: Tervigons fart out Termagants, Termagants and Tervigon run, Termagants shoot, Tervigon does psychic powers, Hive Guard can tanks, Termagants (and sometimes Tervigon) assault when possible - for 5-7 turns, every game!
I find Termagants do well when shooting on arrival from Mycetic Spores. Twenty of the bloody things get twenty shots off, and if they don't land close enough to a viable target they're still a scoring distraction as even if Instinctive behaviour comes out, they are still useful as they can Lurk behind their delivery Spore. If the enemy's watching them, they're not watching their front and vice versa. Zoanthropes are also dynamite when used in this manner, and even Raveners can do some damage if handled properly and used in conjunction with a Trygon or similar.
I like to pull a Deep Strike list out of the hat. I start with a well protected Heavy VC Hive Commander Tyrant with a CQB Warrior Alpha and Warrior Brood close in for protection or QRF. This allows fast reinforcement of (especially) Lictors, Raveners, Tunnelling Rippers, all kinds of Genestealers, Spore Mines, shooting Carnifex, Termagants as described above and most importantly Trygons and their ilk as well as many others. This sort of behaviour is classified as "broken", "beardy", n00bish and geeky. F%$* that. If your opponent can't take a kicking and learn from it then find someone else who can meet you halfway from whom you can learn as they learn from you. It's also very fluffy Tyranid behaviour from second ed onwards.
If you can't be arsed to sod about with the same list as all the other planks that haven't got the imagination to think up their own list and copy every tournament or winning list which falls on its arse rapidly because the player hasn't got a clue how to use it against a determined opponent, then that's the sort of thing that wins. Alternatively, if, like me you've been collecting Tyranids for twenty years, then you too will have hundreds of models with which to swamp the enemy, and that's fluffy as well.
As a tournament quality list, no not really. But as a list for fun games where you're not trying to win at all costs then of course you can! We have a lot of viable options for friendly play; swarm, deep strike or mid bug sized lists are lots of fun. The only thing is they don't hold up against the best of opposing codex's, which is what you tend to find in tournaments, hence why we run tervigons and their ilk.
Be warned, sixth ed will be nothing but a range day. The idea will be that capturing units are defunct and you will need to do nothing but kill, kill, kill. If in doubt, take a long look at the new Necrons, Grey Knights and other speculative upcoming armies (Tau). They do nothing but blast every suitable piece of heavy kit off the table. Allegedly (see t'interweb for a gander at a possible sixth ed rulesbook) the new rules allow for massed tanks. Be warned again that this means that you need to BUY MORE MODELS AND THEY WILL BE HEAVY MODELS. Tyranids will get Tervigon models and other madness, but you will all be expected to buy super-heavy Apocalypse models in order to survive. As far as I'm concerned, if you can get as many models as close to the enemy as possible without incident, then you're halfway there without doubling the price of your army. Be prepared to shoot and only assault in order to get away from being wasted by shooting.
And like hell they'd release 'a Tervigon model and other madness', they're not going to bother. If they were going to give us reinforcements, they would've done it early last year. After BA and DE reinforcements, and GK and Necron releases, AND a busy schedule for this year, then we will be ignored.
If you want to have any chance at winning games ... No. It's tervigons + termagants or nothing. Sad to say, the Tyranid codex is a terrible codex. I should know, because I've built almost 4000 pts of them since the new codex and have tried just about everything that can be done with them. (The only unit I have never once tried using are shrikes.)
Even tervigons + termagants aren't that good. If you find yourself winning that often and that easily, you should know that your opponents are not very strong players.
The only other army list archetype that I have any kind of regular success with is an all reserves/deep striking list. It's a real blast to play -- the most fun army I've ever run -- but it's too random to be truly competitive. You get a lucky set of reserves and good shooting dice on those drops ... hey, you could be in business. On the other hand, things can go very south very quickly, even if you have a decent drop. And that's especially true if you get unlucky early.
Outside of tervigons and all reserves: the Tyranid codex has nothing.
I will agree with the reserve lists being a lot more fun. If you have 2-3K to play with, double up a swarmlord and HT and your reserves are 2+ on turn 2 (since they have to be alive not on table for bonuses) sure thats your 2 HQ but tervigons can be troops, and you can always take a 2nd Force org if you fill the first one (perhaps not competitively, but friendly opponents shouldnt mind). Should you play a planet strike mission then this strategy rocks abolute buttocks, since your raveners, trygons etc can assault upon arrival. It doesnt get better than that.
I actually like the nid codex as is. The statlines are fluffy and in all respects what they should be. unfortunately MW wrote half the other codex's and he seems to like breaking them. So its not our codex that's bad, merely everyone else's that have gone over the top with powerful units and ridiculous rules. After all, what other army can spawn (potentially) 450 points of models in a single turn?
Hang on number6, everyone writes my idea off then you publish it! Thanks for being open-minded enough to criticise then post something someone like me would use. Great stuff.
The army I'm currently using is the Tervigon and Termagant combo. Goes roughly like:
Hive Tyrant, 2 x TL Devs, Tyrant Guard
2 Hive Guard
2 Hive Guard
2 Zoanthropes in a Spore
Tervigon with AG, TS, Cat (x2)
Termagant x 20 (x2)
Dual Trygons or Tyrannofex with Rupture Cannon and a Trygon Prime
[MENTION=10530]number6[/MENTION] your list is indeed quite interesting, and it seems plausible. It's the first time I've seen Carnifexes used in a list for a while. Most people just use Trygons and Tyrannofexes now.
Hulksmash had a non-MC Tyranid list (1850 points) in his blog he was going to use in tournaments. I believe he already has tested it and it wasn't half bad. If I remember it correctly it had 2 Primes, 3*2 Hive Guards, 2*15 Genestealers, 10 Termagants, 2*5 Warriors, 2*5 Raveners and some Gargoyles. Probably there was something else too, check it out on his blog. You can find it by googling "they shall know fear".
Before I converted a tervigon, I used two broods of 6 warriors, Venom and DS (throwback from 3rd ed), Hive Tyrant, Trygon, 3 Biovores,2 Zoans, 12-15 stealer squad (20 if 2k region) with a broodlord, hormagaunts inc AG/toxin and devourergants. Occasionally swapping the trygon for tyrannofex. gave me 50:50 win rate at least.
You've totally and utterly missed my point. You cannot compare CC carnifex's to trygons. Dakka fex's are a totally different beast and there are very few times that a dakka fex should be compared to trygons for a place in a list. Usually its a very open and shut thing as to which one you'd need.
I still have my reasons for not touching dakka-fexs, namely that they're god-awful in assault against anything remotely suited to CC and that against certain armies the dakka-fexs will do very little, whereas trygons have a decent shot at things (FnP BA and green tide orks spring to mind, but wolves and necron matches also seem to favour the trygon.) Even against regular marines, I really don't think 3 MEQ kills is anything to particularly shout about, especially not for verging on 200 points and something that is very fragile in todays competative scene. Similarly im not thrilled by the idea of using a 190 point fex to have a half-arsed go at transport killing. It lacks the strength to pose a threat to battle tanks, where stopping shooting might actually have a purpose, but against transports.... well when you consider a glancing hit has only a 1 in 6 chance of getting a useful result (stopping the thing moving) and even a penetrating hit isn't what you'd call reliable.
It can't be denied however that dakka-fexs are good enough to warrant a place in some lists. Just not mine.
with the newest codex, carnifexes are more expensive and less effective and so I only use them if I am in the need for nostalgia or a good ole laugh. Hier is correct, statistically trygons are a better point-for-point choice, but sometimes, theres nothing to be done except bring on the fexfest.
Until the Trygon can both shoot a transport and assault its contents in a single go, it will be subpar to the dakkafex.
Until the Trygon can shoot with any kind of effectiveness at all, it will be subpar to the dakkafex. 40K is a shooting game, not an assault game. The game is designed such that the better you are in assault, the more likely you are to be stuck in the open for countering by your opponent, either by shooting or assaulting. And usually both. In terms of survival, all the Trygon has going for it are 2 additional wounds over the dakkafex. Those 2 wounds don't count for diddly squat in competitive games. The Trygon dies just as easily as a Dakkafex, but brings offense in only one phase of the game -- Assault -- while the dakkafex brings offense in two: Shooting and Assault. If it gets stuck in the open, it can do something. Unlike the Trygon.
You buy a sandwich because you want one, a loaf of bread doesnt have meat, cheese, or condiments. Its a waste of points to buy two sets of twin linked devourers when you can get the same result from having one pair, If you really want to specialize in shooting, get a HVC, a Stranglethorn, or even twin linked Deathspitters in concert with the first pair of devourers. Thanks for validating my argument.
Its a waste of points to buy two sets of twin linked devourers when you can get the same result from having one pair, If you really want to specialize in shooting, get a HVC, a Stranglethorn, or even twin linked Deathspitters in concert with the first pair of devourers.
What do you mean "get the same result", you have twice the shots! 12 shots at S6 is very decent, some of the best anti-infantry shooting you'll find in the Tyranid codex! Even suggesting twin-linked Deathspitters makes me cry-laugh! And with a BS of 3, those scatters guns are much too risky to use, when Devourers have proven themselves time and time again. HVC is generally unreliable, I find, and in any list that isn't specifically designed to counter a horde army, Stranglethorn isn't worth it. Devourers are universally best.
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