~! A Few Situational Questions Before my next Tournament - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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    ~! A Few Situational Questions Before my next Tournament

    Good day Fellow Warboss' !

    So I have asked questions here before, and thankfully your experience of the Ork and 40k was only matched by your enthusiasm to help. So here I am again, with a few situational questions that are based on the last 10 or so games with Orks. I will list them with numbers, so when you reply please simply list the number you would like to respond to so I can collate and bring with me to the next tourney.

    Your help is ALWAYS appreciated!

    1- Battlewagons with Deffrolla. So we know we can tankshock units as well as vehicles inflicting 1D6 wounds, and sometimes 2D6 depending on how things go. But here are several scenarios of things I would like to do, are they legal?:

    a- Dismount all of my Shoota boyz before pivoting and declaring a 12" TS against a squad/vehicle
    b- Declare only a <=6" TS against a Squad/Vehicle so that I can shoot with a single BW gun (kannon) and all of my Shoota boyz onboard
    c- Declare only a <=6" TS against a Squad/Vehicle, move forward until I come into contact, resolve the DR attack, dismount my Shoota boyz who will then Shoot then Assault in the respective phases... This one I have seen done before, but it seems a bit unlikely given that you are TS / Ramming a unit/vehicle...

    2. Tyrandids. Hive Guards with their Impaler Cannon. Having the ability to shoot without LOS at my vehicles and ignore the KFF obscurement 4+ save... The new Tyranid FAQ says 'Can a unit take cover saves from any source other
    than the terrain they are in, or touching, against
    Wounds caused by an impaler cannon? (p47)
    A: No.'

    My thought is that my VEhicles do not have Wounds... and they are obscured, therefore I should be able to take my 4+

    3. Big Mek with Tools. So if I have a Big Mek in an open topped BW in base contact with another vehicle, can I do a 4+ Repair save on the other vehicle since they are touching and open topped? This would save me dismounting the Big Mek into BtB contact with the other vehicle...

    4. Boss Pole. I know it says somewhere that you cant re-roll a re-roll, so can I continue to beat my Slugga/Shoota boyz with my Nob with BP after they continue to fail their Leadership test? Ex being I have lost combat by a lot so I need to roll a 2-3, which wont happen often, so I just continue to beat my troops, take an armour save, remove model if required, and beat again ?

    Also, can my Nob w/ BP beat my Warboss? Seems a bit unlikely that the WB would take the beating well.. but my WB often rolls around with a Mega Armour so that 2+ is alot easier to roll then the standard 6+

    5. War Boss in Mega Armour. So we know that MANZ and WB in MA are Slow And Purposeful, but since WB have the Move through Cover, does that allow me to roll 3D6 and take the higehest when I Move, Run, and Assault? If I am with Kommandos who also have MTC, I should be good, but what if my MA WB is in with Slugga boyz? Does the whole unit Move, Run, Assault on 2D6 or 3D6?

    6. Shooting at a Vehicle, then Assaulting its Load. So I have my 30x Shoota Boyz with 3x Rokkit Launchas and I shoot a Rhino with some Troops on board. Lets say I am lucky and I pop the Rhino and all of its Troops Disembark either in the crater or off to the side of a Wreck... can I then continue to Shoot at the Troops with my Shootas, then Assault any of the remaining Troops?


    Well that is all that is on my mind after looking over some of my Post Game Notes... I truly appreciate any and all feedback related to these questions. I have read the LRB many times, and I can tell you that I have seen all of these situations come up in other peoples games as well as my own.... often enought the two people roll off because they cant agree, so I am hoping to have some more concrete answers and reference ready for this tourney, instead of having to roll off.

    Many thanks and I look forward to your comments!


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  3. #2
    Senior Member SILKiam's Avatar
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    Must admit that i don;t have my rules book handy atm, but here goes:

    1- Battlewagons with Deffrolla. So we know we can tankshock units as well as vehicles inflicting 1D6 wounds, and sometimes 2D6 depending on how things go. But here are several scenarios of things I would like to do, are they legal?:

    a- Dismount all of my Shoota boyz before pivoting and declaring a 12" TS against a squad/vehicle
    b- Declare only a <=6" TS against a Squad/Vehicle so that I can shoot with a single BW gun (kannon) and all of my Shoota boyz onboard
    c- Declare only a <=6" TS against a Squad/Vehicle, move forward until I come into contact, resolve the DR attack, dismount my Shoota boyz who will then Shoot then Assault in the respective phases... This one I have seen done before, but it seems a bit unlikely given that you are TS / Ramming a unit/vehicle...
    Unless theres a line in the tank shocking rules (none come to mind) that explicitly state that you cannot do anything after the tank shock, then all of these are perfectly fine. If there is one, then "A" is still good. You're moving the boyz after all, not the wagon.

    2. Tyrandids. Hive Guards with their Impaler Cannon. Having the ability to shoot without LOS at my vehicles and ignore the KFF obscurement 4+ save... The new Tyranid FAQ says 'Can a unit take cover saves from any source other
    than the terrain they are in, or touching, against
    Wounds caused by an impaler cannon? (p47)
    A: No.'

    My thought is that my VEhicles do not have Wounds... and they are obscured, therefore I should be able to take my 4+
    If you really wanna stretch RAW as far as possible then you are in the right here too, they are rolling for armour penetration and not to wound models.

    3. Big Mek with Tools. So if I have a Big Mek in an open topped BW in base contact with another vehicle, can I do a 4+ Repair save on the other vehicle since they are touching and open topped? This would save me dismounting the Big Mek into BtB contact with the other vehicle...
    The wagon is in base-to-base, not the big mekk, so no.

    4. Boss Pole. I know it says somewhere that you cant re-roll a re-roll, so can I continue to beat my Slugga/Shoota boyz with my Nob with BP after they continue to fail their Leadership test? Ex being I have lost combat by a lot so I need to roll a 2-3, which wont happen often, so I just continue to beat my troops, take an armour save, remove model if required, and beat again ?
    I think thats a definite no. You are still trying to pass the same leadership test, you're just going through an extra point to get said re-roll.

    Also, can my Nob w/ BP beat my Warboss? Seems a bit unlikely that the WB would take the beating well.. but my WB often rolls around with a Mega Armour so that 2+ is alot easier to roll then the standard 6+
    I do believe you can, and if you can't theres some opponents I need to apologise to.

    5. War Boss in Mega Armour. So we know that MANZ and WB in MA are Slow And Purposeful, but since WB have the Move through Cover, does that allow me to roll 3D6 and take the higehest when I Move, Run, and Assault? If I am with Kommandos who also have MTC, I should be good, but what if my MA WB is in with Slugga boyz? Does the whole unit Move, Run, Assault on 2D6 or 3D6?
    Again, this is something I would have to check up on myself. Off of the top of my head, the slugga boyz would get the move through cover bonus for the WB diff terrain test as he is the only one in the unit that is actually taking such a test and the rest of the unit is having to abide by moving at the lowest speed of a model in the unit. The MANz are a no, I think, as they are all testing, and theres the possibility that the WB loses his special rule due to the majority.
    6. Shooting at a Vehicle, then Assaulting its Load. So I have my 30x Shoota Boyz with 3x Rokkit Launchas and I shoot a Rhino with some Troops on board. Lets say I am lucky and I pop the Rhino and all of its Troops Disembark either in the crater or off to the side of a Wreck... can I then continue to Shoot at the Troops with my Shootas, then Assault any of the remaining Troops?
    Err pass for now. Need to read to just double check, but I've seen it played that way.

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    SILKiam, thanks for the input! I have been re-reading lots of the LRB to get my head wrapped around a few of these questions... still at odds with most of them, including # 5 and 6

    Cheers!

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    After some research on #6, I have come up with a pretty definitive answer. Yes, you can assault the unit if you destroy the transport in the shooting phase. Found on page 67 under Effects of Damage Results on Passengers - Destroyed-Explodes! paragraph there. Hope this is what you were looking for!

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    Perfect, thanks Interro! I have re-ready p67 and have to concur.

    There are still a few questions I wouldnt mind additional feedback on... any takers, new comments, new perspectives?

    Thanks!

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    Senior Member TheNightbringer's Avatar
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    You can charge the cargo of the wrecked vehicle, but you can't shoot it with the rest of your squad before charging it.

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    Thanks Night Bringer... appreciate the info.

    Any other takers on Q1? Battlewagons are a big part of my list... so knowing this one inside and out will really go a long way in some of the harder/closer games!

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    On the topic of the Bosspole, Im certain it does give endless re-rolls because the wording used is "everytime a unit with a Bosspole fails its morale test" with no mention of only using it once. I showed it to a GW employee at my local GW and he seemed to support me on it.

  10. #9
    Orks_n_Bugs Bugs_n_Orks's Avatar
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    While I'm newish to (5th edition) Orks, I've been to plenty of tournaments so I can tell how most of these work, some are a slightly grey area but they almost always get ruled the same way by TO's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glockster83 View Post
    a- Dismount all of my Shoota boyz before pivoting and declaring a 12" TS against a squad/vehicle
    Fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glockster83 View Post
    b- Declare only a <=6" TS against a Squad/Vehicle so that I can shoot with a single BW gun (kannon) and all of my Shoota boyz onboard
    Fine for a Tank Shock. Not ok for a Ram. Ramming has a couple of extra limitations, mainly that the vehicle cannot shoot and that it MUST move full speed. Also keep in mind that if you declare a Tank Shock (not a Ram) you automatically stop when you come within 1" of an enemy vehicle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glockster83 View Post
    c- Declare only a <=6" TS against a Squad/Vehicle, move forward until I come into contact, resolve the DR attack, dismount my Shoota boyz who will then Shoot then Assault in the respective phases... This one I have seen done before, but it seems a bit unlikely given that you are TS / Ramming a unit/vehicle...
    Again this is fine for normal Tank Shock (assuming there's space for them to disembark), but for Ramming you can't go less than full speed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glockster83 View Post
    2. Tyrandids. Hive Guards with their Impaler Cannon. Having the ability to shoot without LOS at my vehicles and ignore the KFF obscurement 4+ save... The new Tyranid FAQ says 'Can a unit take cover saves from any source other
    than the terrain they are in, or touching, against
    Wounds caused by an impaler cannon? (p47)
    A: No.'

    My thought is that my VEhicles do not have Wounds... and they are obscured, therefore I should be able to take my 4+
    While you might be able to argue this from a Rules As Written standpoint I'd advise against it. Pretty much everywhere else in the game when they talk about taking saves, wounds and glances/pens are interchangable. For example there's a Dark Eldar vehicle upgrade that gives it a 5+ invulnerable save, but nowhere in the rules does it actually say you can take an invul save against glances or pens, just against wounds, so technically according to the rules that upgrade is completely useless (since vehicles obviously don't take wounds). Trying to argue this one will likely get you labelled as a Rules Lawyer/WAAC/TFG by your opponent and most TO's I know will rule against you anyway. Not trying to yell at you or anything here, just an FYI that this is a fight that probably isn't worth picking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glockster83 View Post
    3. Big Mek with Tools. So if I have a Big Mek in an open topped BW in base contact with another vehicle, can I do a 4+ Repair save on the other vehicle since they are touching and open topped? This would save me dismounting the Big Mek into BtB contact with the other vehicle...
    Not legal. The mek needs to be in Base to Base (or in the vehicle according to the FAQ) in order to repair.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glockster83 View Post
    4. Boss Pole. I know it says somewhere that you cant re-roll a re-roll, so can I continue to beat my Slugga/Shoota boyz with my Nob with BP after they continue to fail their Leadership test? Ex being I have lost combat by a lot so I need to roll a 2-3, which wont happen often, so I just continue to beat my troops, take an armour save, remove model if required, and beat again?

    Also, can my Nob w/ BP beat my Warboss? Seems a bit unlikely that the WB would take the beating well.. but my WB often rolls around with a Mega Armour so that 2+ is alot easier to roll then the standard 6+ :)
    You can never re-roll a re-roll, so you can only beat them once. If for some reason you had a Stormboy mob with Zagstruck and an IC with a bosspole, you could re-roll with the bosspole then if you failed that execute someone with Zagstruck to auto-pass the check (since Zagstruck's ability isn't actually a re-roll).

    And yes you can smack the Warboss. The unit takes a wound, which you can then allocate to anyone in the unit (aside from the model with the bosspole). See how long you nob lives for after the battle though lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glockster83 View Post
    5. War Boss in Mega Armour. So we know that MANZ and WB in MA are Slow And Purposeful, but since WB have the Move through Cover, does that allow me to roll 3D6 and take the higehest when I Move, Run, and Assault? If I am with Kommandos who also have MTC, I should be good, but what if my MA WB is in with Slugga boyz? Does the whole unit Move, Run, Assault on 2D6 or 3D6?
    2D6 with Slugga Boyz (and any other non-Kommando unit). All IC's have Move Through Cover, however it's one of the rules that is lost when you join a unit that doesn't have it. So as long as the Warboss is joined to Sluggas (or any other unit without MTC) he no longer has that rule.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glockster83 View Post
    6. Shooting at a Vehicle, then Assaulting its Load. So I have my 30x Shoota Boyz with 3x Rokkit Launchas and I shoot a Rhino with some Troops on board. Lets say I am lucky and I pop the Rhino and all of its Troops Disembark either in the crater or off to the side of a Wreck... can I then continue to Shoot at the Troops with my Shootas, then Assault any of the remaining Troops?
    No to the shooting part, yes to the assaulting part. All shooting by a unit happens simultaneously AND it all must be resolved against the same enemy unit (a few units have the ability to split fire between multiple enemy units but that is clearly listed in their special rules, things like Long Fangs, certain Tau things, and Land Raiders/Stormravens). Since it happens simultaneously, you roll all of your "to hit" rolls for both the rokkits and sluggas before moving on to the "to wound/armor penetration" rolls so there's no way to hit both the vehicle and occupants with the same unit.

    Yes you can assault the disembarked occupants with the unit that destroyed the vehicle.
    The meat things seek to destroy ourselves. They hunt us as we hunt them but they are weak and uncertain. Bring them understanding of the power of ourselves through our strength and their fear. The inferior flesh will be entirely destroyed, all fragments will be smashed. Ourselves will fight to the last, all weak flesh must be consumed

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    LO Zealot Rafici's Avatar
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    Ok I will do my best:
    1- Battlewagons with Deffrolla. So we know we can tankshock units as well as vehicles inflicting 1D6 wounds, and sometimes 2D6 depending on how things go. But here are several scenarios of things I would like to do, are they legal?:

    a- Dismount all of my Shoota boyz before pivoting and declaring a 12" TS against a squad/vehicle
    b- Declare only a <=6" TS against a Squad/Vehicle so that I can shoot with a single BW gun (kannon) and all of my Shoota boyz onboard
    c- Declare only a <=6" TS against a Squad/Vehicle, move forward until I come into contact, resolve the DR attack, dismount my Shoota boyz who will then Shoot then Assault in the respective phases... This one I have seen done before, but it seems a bit unlikely given that you are TS / Ramming a unit/vehicle...
    B and C would not be allowed as I'm sure you can't do anything after a tank shock. As for A, I think that is fine
    2. Tyrandids. Hive Guards with their Impaler Cannon. Having the ability to shoot without LOS at my vehicles and ignore the KFF obscurement 4+ save... The new Tyranid FAQ says 'Can a unit take cover saves from any source other
    than the terrain they are in, or touching, against
    Wounds caused by an impaler cannon? (p47)
    A: No.'

    My thought is that my VEhicles do not have Wounds... and they are obscured, therefore I should be able to take my 4+
    dodgy one here but I would say you can't do this and I think most people you will play would agree. I know I have never got my tau cover save from their obscure when playing my Friends IG. I do think that single shot weapons should never ignore cover
    3. Big Mek with Tools. So if I have a Big Mek in an open topped BW in base contact with another vehicle, can I do a 4+ Repair save on the other vehicle since they are touching and open topped? This would save me dismounting the Big Mek into BtB contact with the other vehicle...
    I know the KFF has the effect from the edge of the tank not the big mek but I think that is the exception to the rule. So no, you would need to get out.
    4. Boss Pole. I know it says somewhere that you cant re-roll a re-roll, so can I continue to beat my Slugga/Shoota boyz with my Nob with BP after they continue to fail their Leadership test? Ex being I have lost combat by a lot so I need to roll a 2-3, which wont happen often, so I just continue to beat my troops, take an armour save, remove model if required, and beat again ?
    You can only do it once
    Also, can my Nob w/ BP beat my Warboss? Seems a bit unlikely that the WB would take the beating well.. but my WB often rolls around with a Mega Armour so that 2+ is alot easier to roll then the standard 6+
    I see no reason why not.
    5. War Boss in Mega Armour. So we know that MANZ and WB in MA are Slow And Purposeful, but since WB have the Move through Cover, does that allow me to roll 3D6 and take the higehest when I Move, Run, and Assault? If I am with Kommandos who also have MTC, I should be good, but what if my MA WB is in with Slugga boyz? Does the whole unit Move, Run, Assault on 2D6 or 3D6?
    The whole unit must have the rule to use it and you move at the speed of the slowest member.
    6. Shooting at a Vehicle, then Assaulting its Load. So I have my 30x Shoota Boyz with 3x Rokkit Launchas and I shoot a Rhino with some Troops on board. Lets say I am lucky and I pop the Rhino and all of its Troops Disembark either in the crater or off to the side of a Wreck... can I then continue to Shoot at the Troops with my Shootas, then Assault any of the remaining Troops?
    You can shoot the vehical and then assult the troops inside, but the unit must delaire who they are shooting before they shoot (very import against units which can split their fire as some players try to get away with seeing what happens with the first models before deciding what the other models will fire at - my friend tried this on with his long fangs) and they shoot at the same time. Therefore they could never shoot them troops inside the vehical.


    Hope this helps
    Tau: 6K - W17-D3-L4, Orks: 4K - W9-D0-L2, SM: 7K - W7-D3-L4,CSM: 4K W5-D1-L1, Nids: 3.2K W3-D0-L2
    Apoc games (mixture of armies used): W5-D0-L1

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