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I have been paying War40k couple of years ago ( when There was still not 5th codec, so not that recently, is it ? ), and I am gonna be playing warhammer 40k again with some friends. I have been reading quite a lot about DE on internet recently, and I still have couple ( a lot actually, but I will spare you the non relevant ones ^^ ) of questions :
a) - is it viable to have an army without wyches ? I mean, I don't like the style of their model that much, I'd prefer have Kabalite warrior as troops if possible ( I don't want to have a super competitive army, but I don't want to have an army that loose all the time either ). Then, what kind of strategy is associated with such an army if so ?
b) - Is the WWP not a really risky ? I seems that on a bad rools, all the units that are supposed to come out from it have to wait longer outside of the game, then if the WWP is close to the opponent for quick assault, he can eventually just surround it ...
c) - I really like the model of the Talos / chronos pain engine, but I read that it does need a WWP list to work out, is it the only way ? ( I don't want to run a haemonculus coven army with only haemonculus / wracks / Talos units ) and if there is no real other way, -> b) ? =PP
d) - I am wondering about which HQ to choose ( we won't be using special chars as we will have small armies for the moment, so the only ones would be archon / haemonculus / succubus right ? I'd prefer the model of an archon ( Maybe I'll be able to build my one from an eldar archon, that should be possible shoudln't be ? ), how does it work ? I mean, which what kind of units does it go, etc ...
e) - How do units in transport work ? can they assault after disembarking straightly ? can they shoot then assault stratghly ? can they run then assault straitghly ? of course, from what I understood, it would really matter only for wracks / wyches / incuby ( I like Incuby =PP )and what is the good way of using Kabalite warriors in a Raider ?
f) - considering the previous questions, which army type/list could you advice me to get to start with ? I kinda liked the "10 wyches - 10 kabalite warriors - 3 reavers - 1 raider" but even though wyches are still quite okay to me, I would prefer to avoid them if possible ^^", and that box does not contain any HQ either.
Thanks in advance =))
I am probably forgetting questions, but don't worry, I'll be back with them =DD
Last edited by Fruz; May 29th, 2012 at 12:30. Reason: one more question
Hello and welcome to the forum and back to the hobby!
I'll go straight for your questions!
1. Yes, an army without wyches is very viable. Stacking up on warriors and kabalite trueborns will make a very strong list. You'll likely want to have some sort of CC units at the ready when your warriors can't shoot their way to victory, instead of wyches you could bring beastmasters, wracks, incubi or even grotesques - all are viable options. When going for a lot of warriors you're likely looking at getting a couple of more of raiders to put them in, and probably some venoms to keep your trueborns in. These coupled with some ravagers and/or jetfighters will get you a long way. The strategy is to keep the enemy from your lines, outmanouvering them with your transports and eventually charge them down if needed.
2. The WWP is quite risky, it requires both good luck and skill to pull off well. It's not something I'd recommend to a new commander. WWP armies need a very well thought out battle-plan but you also need to be extremely flexible, since you have no idea what's going to pop out of that portal or when.
3. The Talos and Cronos are super cool, I have one of each myself. They are quite tricky to use though, and just like you've heard, they work best coupled with a WWP list. The problem with these units is that they're pretty slow and are quite fragile when moving across the battlefield. If the rest of your army is in transports they're going to first get left behind and when they finally reach their destination they will get shot down or charged and killed, likely. With the WWP they don't have to walk (float) across the whole table, and they don't have to fear getting shot at before being in the face of the enemy. You don't have to run them with other coven units if you don't want to. It's just their fluff, but they don't need any of them to be effective on the battlefield.
4. Your HQ is probably one of your most important units, unless you go all out shooting, in which case they can be rather marginalized. If you want a cheap but effective HQ, there are a lot to choose from. I'd recommend going for the Archon as he can be tooled to work against any enemy and he's the natural leader warrior-heavy army. You can get him a good save, good shooting, make him good against other characters, monstrous creatures or just massed infantry, the best of the best really. All the basic HQs are pretty cheap, but some of the special characters are rather cheap as well, if you want some extra punch for your shooting you could go for duke sliscus who makes your shooting stronger, or you could get the baron to help one of your CC units, especially good with hellions or beastmasters.
5. Units in transports can assault after disembarking, since our transports are open-topped. they can shoot and then assault as well, but they can't fire any rapid fire weapons if they wish to assault, wyches or other CC specialists have pistols that can fire before assaulting and others, like hellions, have assault weapons they can fire on the charge. however, if you want to shoot before assaulting you can't fleet, making your chances of reaching CC smaller. A good way of using warriors in a raider is to give them a splinter cannon and a blaster and they just move around the battlefield shooting things up. you can add splinter racks to the raider for some extra killyness. keeping them away from close combat is essential though, they're really not made for it.
6. Since you want to go with a lot of warriors I'd recommend you to do just that. 2-3 units of warriors in raider. 1-2 units of trueborn in venoms - some with blasters and some with splinter cannons. An archon with a unit of Incubi in a venom. a couple of ravagers and/or jetfighters. then, depending on what you prefer, some hellions, reavers, beastmasters or another cheap HQ is what I'd recommend.
I hope that answers some of your questions. Good luck with your army!
"I have seen you humans, trying to forge an Empire in the name of a corpse"
Thank you for your answer !
So basically, if I don't have a WWP, I shoudln't have a Talos ? =((
Maybe the WWP on the archon in a venomraider with the incubbi could drop it quite near but not too close to the ennemies for the Talos and the reavers to come out.
Having only one CC unit ( incubbi ) seems quite weak to me, is it not ? ( with a Talos, that's make 2 CC squads, and if I consider reavers as being CC squad as well => 3 ).
I like the idea of making a DE archon from a normal Archon, I will probably try that !
If a kabalite unit rests in a raider, can they shoot from inside of it if the raider moves more than 6" ? That would mean that if a unit charges it, it can backup of -" one turn and shoot, and has to move without shooting the one after ? but I guess 2 rounds of shooting maybe enough, I don't really realize it yet.
Is ravager mandatory ? I though that with a shooting army of kabalite, trueborns and raiders, there would be quite a lot of dark lances against heavy units, reavers can take out heavy units as well if correctly built right ?
I might begin with 1 Archon, 1 squad of Incubus, 1 squad of kabalite truborn ( half in the raider half footloggin, don't wanna spend too much money for a starting army I think ), a raider and maybe some reavers.
Or I will try out the starting box + archon since the wyches in there are like free considering the price, I could then test with them as a CC unit.
And if I want to spend more money, venom incoming.
At least I have a guideline to buy my models, thank you =)
Another question that comes to my mind, is a unit of trueborns with close combat weapon ( does it give +1 attack then ? ) + splinter rifle a good idea ? There is not the 4+ save of wyches, but they have more attack and still 5+ and loose only 1 I ( and they do have plasma grenades ).
Last edited by Fruz; May 29th, 2012 at 21:08.
Hi, welcome to the forums.
a) yes. Taking a warrior army will be a viable list, its just that many people like to take the wytches for CC because they are cheap and can get the job done. Plus they are scoring units so after you are done killing you can take the objective, and whats more fun than saying my knife wielding wytch just killed your power armor marine? You said you incubi, and fitting a squad in could be your combat if you prefer. Some dark elder lists also avoid CC altogether and use mobility and firepower to win games (venom spam).
b)WWP is a risky army to say the least. If you are too slow, your opponent can move around the portal and force you to come on from your board edge instead and you have just wasted a portal. They are usually more of a friendly game style because the uncertainty makes them too risky for competitive play.
c) talos and pain engines are better in the WWP lists because they are too slow to catch up with our transports. While the rest of the army is in the opponents face, the talos/pain engine is running to catch up. They are good to rip vehicles apart and pain token shenanigans, and it is a very nice model, but they are not practical in a non WWP army.
d)All are good in their own respects. Archons can be made for any situation, and are often put with a unit of 4 inculi in a venom for a CC unit (might be good idea for you since you like both of those units and they are good), plus they have access to the court, but most people don't use them. Succubus are a wytch on steroids. Run up with wytches and kill an enemy in a storm of attacks. Haemonculus are fun, and have access to unique wargear. The most common one i use is with a liquifier in a raider. Fly up and flame template from anywhere on the vehicle. Plus they are cheap, and 3 for 1 hq spot.
e)They follow all rules from the normal rule book for assaulting and fast (pg70), transports (pg66-67) and open-topped vehicles (pg 70). So the shorted version that includes all the rules is you are allowed to move up to 12", then disembark within 2 inches of the vehicle (or disembark then move 12"). You are then allowed to run or shoot, and assault following all assaulting rules (cannot assault if fired rapid fire or heavy weapons unless it has the relentless rule, must assault unit it shot at). Most combat-dedicated troops come armed with a pistol anyways so you don't have to worry. If the transport blows up the passengers will take a S3 hit, not S4 because it is a open topped vehicle.
Kabalite warriors are good for moving around and shooting. A blaster is a must because it allows them to shoot vehicles if they need to and splinter cannons are helpful. I like to have 9 warriors and a haemy on a raider with flicker and a shock prow. This allows me to ram right into a enemy unit, flame them and shoot them, them if they run i am hopefully close enough to make them keep running.
f)How many points? I would suggest to first decide on a HQ. If you want the archon, run 4 incubi in a venom, warriors in a raider or venoms, some ravagers and maybe some trueborn. If you feel like the haemy grab some warriors, a squad of wytches, trueborn and some ravagers. Things that you will probably get no matter what army you are going to run are the ravagers, raider and venoms, warriors and probably trueborn (which are warriors that you paint differently or convert to look different to tell them apart).
If you have any more questions feel free to post.
Don't you love how they call this a quick reply?
Right. I don't see any rules that allow you to shoot if you move over the 6". This means you would have to move less that 6" to be able to shoot the opponent.
you could probably swap them out for a unit of blasterborn (4 trueborn with basters in a venom) but they are our best anti-tank. 3 shots at 36" range vs 24". Yes there are alot of lances in a dark eldar army with raiders, but if you think about it 1 in 3 will miss its target, and if you are running 6 raiders, that is 4 hits, then at least a 3 to pen. After all that you prbably will only get 1 or 2 pens a turn, while only 1 will be a destroyed result.
Grab the battleforce and run the wytches. If you don't like them, ask your opponent if you can run them as warriors or incubi to try them out, most of the time people say yes if you are starting a new army up.
I would say no. They shouldn't be in combat in the first place because they should be on their transport flying around. You are also losing shooting attacks by swapping the pistols in. Keep the rifles and leave the CC for CC units.
Last edited by thatrandomguy; May 29th, 2012 at 22:39.
Thank you =)
At the end, I think I will start with
10 Kabalite Warrior
5 Kabalite warriors with 1 blaster
4 Incubi + 1 Archon with agonizer, shadowfield, ghostplate armor and combat drugs.
both squads in a Raider with Flicker field + night Shield
5 Kabalite warriors with 1 blaster in a Venom with Night Shield
which would bring me close to 450/500 points.
The raider would drop the CC squad, the rest of the units in the raider can just shoot while the CC squad run and charge, after what the raider would still be there as a backup for the CC squad.
I would split the Kabalite Warrior squad in 2 because I don't want to buy too many units at the beginning and the total of it suits within raider + venom.
What do you guys think of it ? =)
The next objective would be probably to buy another kabalite Warrior squad ( which would be using dark lances, and afford to upgrade the kabalite squad in the venom into truborns ), then a Talos with WWP . Talos and WWP would come out of the WWP ( Talos on the front close to the CC incubi squad, and kabalite Warrior more at the backside of it to use balistic weapons including dark lance. Is it a good plan ?
But I admit I still have quite a lot of time before reaching that point ^^".
And reavers squads in that configuration could come out of the WWP portal too !
And I would be thinking about a ravager/razorwing too at that time.
PS : is it possible to roll the dices to know if troops from reserve are able to come this turn, then to drop the WWP and immediatly after to deploy them or droping the WWP is during shooting step and deploying during next turn's very beginning step ?
Last edited by Fruz; May 30th, 2012 at 18:42.
Yeah reinforcements come before the shooting phase so a WWP needs to be deployed 1 turn before you want to use it.
Most people try to deploy them on turn 1 so your units don't get stranded.
Copy, Improve, Innovate
Agreed, and if you're going with a WWP army, you should try to bring at least 2 portals, and one of them should "always" be up in turn 1.
"I have seen you humans, trying to forge an Empire in the name of a corpse"
Just a quick point, I frequently take 1 or 2 Talos, never take a WWP, but I've not encountered any issues with them. I find the range of the splinter cannon means they're capable of dishing out pain from a distance and their high toughness and wounds mean they can survive small arms fire.
If your opponent concentrates on them, then your troops & transports are left alone whilst if they concentrate on your troops then the Talos gets to shoot & advance unhindered.
<) + (5Warriors)
<==)> + (5warriors) + (4Incubi + Archon)
"The Lady Demands"
I noticed that it was impossible when someone else told me couple of weeks ago, I though it was ok since noone reacted to that here in the first place actually.
I haven ow 1 raider, 1 venom,5 incubi, 1 archon and 20 kabalite warriors
Incubi+archon are gonna go in the venom, 10 warrior in the raider and the raider without transport atm.
I'm gonna increase a little bit to be able to have 4 blaster trueborn in the venom, which mean I'm gonna buy 10 more kabalite warriors and 1 transport.
Here are my questions atm :
- with :
venom + 5 trueborn ( 4 blasters )
raider + 10 warriors ( 1 SC )
4 or 5 Incubi and 1 Archon
15 additionals warriors ( prolly just one other unit )
which transport should I take for the Incubi and the Archon ? a Venom ? And for the near future, is venom + 5 warrior good at anything but claiming points as they are a troop ?
- I don't know exactly which additionnal weapon to put in my 10 raiders squads, I mean I already have 4 blasters from 2 boxes ( 2 normals and 2 made easily from dark lance, I though about having a 3 trueborn - 2 DL squad but as it costs 86 points, I'd rather have a ravager imo so I'm converting DL to blasters ) :
o What about a shredder ? is it not a good threat for the opponent who would come to CC the squad ? I mean, assaulting a unit with AP 6 small blast 12 range doesn't seem something very enjoyable to me
o Another blaster ?
Oh, and has anyone been trying the voidraven and can tell me if the landing mines style is playable ? @shooting ennemies AT first with the lances and the other AT in the DE army, then going for the mines ?