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well, i had an interesting game yesterday....yeah. take and hold. one turn six i had wiped out all the tyranids on the board except his monsterous creatures. the tyrant on the objective had one wound off of it. the other had 2 wounds off of it. one carnifex had 2 wounds left and the other had 3. in a 1500 point list, had 4 monsterous creatures. do you guys think this is ok? i just need to vent, b/c i loaded up on "anti nid" stuff....heavy bolters, rocket/grenade launchers. normally, im ok with losing, but this time was a little upsetting just b/c i was expecting something totally different. i know surprises are to be expected, but this newb didnt even make his own list. he had my friend make it for him, and give him tactics on how to win. and then he did the typical..."hey looky!!! i blew that thing up, isnt that so awesome!!! i totally blew you up..YES!!!!" "hey, did i do that right? hey, HEY....i did it right, right?" ugh!!!. it just added insult to injury...ok, *end rant*
You didn't load up on anti nid stuff, but on anti-small-nid stuff.
4 monstrous creatures in 1500pts is tough but acceptable. Keep in mind that the 'nid player has to expect lots of tanks against which his small bugs will be totally useless, so he will try to get prepared for that. E.g. i once played against IG just to find out that 2/3 of my army (in points) couldn't hurt anything of the stuff that my opponent had put on the table.
Only if you volunteer not to use more than two tanks (andhe knows it) you have a right to complain about his monstrous creatures....you wouldn't feel bad about using 4 tanks either, would you?
4 TMCs in 1500 seems alright to me, I think I would use 3, as I stick by the 500 pts per TMC theory as do many other people on this forum, but 4 is far from excessive IMO.
As Archon has said when you face Tyranids stock up on high str high AP anti-tank type weapons for the TMCs. Many times I belive my victory in the game was soully down to the TMCs cleaning up because the opponent was too scared of the horde element and focussed to much attention there vice versa Ive seen players concentrate to much on the TMCs and get swamped up by the horde, a trully successful tyranid armt must find a common ground of the big beasties and little beaties (IMO) however I have seen some trully devastating specialised tyranid armies, guess its all about finding your style of play. Anyway better luck next time I guess
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As a player of both IG and Nids I can offer a little advice:
Take 3 Leman Russes. Tanks are the hardest thing for nids to deal with.
Take the veterans doctrine and make yourself 3 squads of veterans with a lascannon and 3 plasma guns. Go hunt down the TMCs with these guys.
Try and throw a hellhound into your army if you can. It can take out a lot of gaunts.
Dual VC fex's, concentrated warp blasts, s+2d6 tank tipping deep striking winged ht's.
Tanks are not a big problem. Only thing that can hold up for another turn is a land raider or a monolith.
Nids problem is actually taking a hit from low ap high str weapons/power weapons.
No invulnerables is a problem.
Personally I wouldn't have played the guy from the start if he was really like that. Facing 4 TMC's, you took a lot of swarm killing weapons but sounds like too few TMC killing weapons. If he's TMC heavy, concentrate on killing them and the rest falls into place.
Blah-Blah, at least You can find solace in the fact that it wasn't the kid himself who beat You, but his premade army-list and tactics.
But as others have noted, You only seemed to concentrate on weapons which are effective against the lesser, non-TMC Tyranids... Against the big TMCs You definitely need Plasma and Lascannons!
Now that You're aware of Your shortcomings, make up a bit more balanced list and challenge him to a rematch!
Be certain to try and concetrate firepower on taking out one TMC at a time... A TMC with 1 wound is still as effective in shooting as a healthy one, so take them out to lessen the effectiveness of the rest of the army.
Also, if possible, take out the Tyrants first... The Tyrants are pretty accurate shots and provide the Synapse essential for the proper functioning of the Tyranid swarm. Once they're out, others should be easier to deal with due to the Instinctive Behaviour rules. Hive Nodes within Gaunt swarms will help Your opponent, but it only results in an increased Ld, they are no longer immune to Morale and Pinning as they were in Synapse range!
The Carnifexes have great strength, but are rather slow. As such, I'd place the Tyrants higher in target priority.
"The meat things seek to destroy ourselves. They hunt us as we hunt them but they are weak and uncertain. The inferior flesh will be entirely destroyed, all biomatter consumed. Ourselves will fight to the last, all weak flesh must be devoured."
You aren't going to touch them with power weapons in an IG army. 99% of the IG is S 3, that means you'll need 6s to wound TMCs. Not to mention the fact that the IG is I3 or I4. Guys with power weapons won't even get a chance to attack in close combat.Originally posted by Pyre@Dec 5 2004, 19:20
Nids problem is actually taking a hit from low ap high str weapons/power weapons.[snapback]266457[/snapback]
Tanks are the only thing the Nids have trouble dealing with in an IG list. Everything else is just meat for the grinder once they get to your lines.
Tanks are absolutely no problem.
And what i said about power weapons was in general. I know the IG don't have many PW. I just meant they have trouble dealing with it. (Possible to take GK in an IG army?) IG have to DEPEND on their tanks to kill the TMC's. That and the heavy weapon teams but we know what happens to them. I am pretty sure there is an insane number of lascannon that can be on the table with IG.
To illustrate why they are not a problem, this is what I'll be needing to roll on 14 armor vehicles.
Dual VC Carnifex = 4 shots, needs a 4, needs a 4.
HT with VC = 3 shots, needs a 3, needs a 6.
HT/Zoanthrope with concentrated warp blast = psychic test (easy), needs a 3, needs a 4.
So ranged tyranid tank hunting comes down to what? Maybe about a 50% chance with each creature's fire that something is going to get crippled/blown. If you want to just save time, get out a quarter and flip a coin, heads = a tank is fubar, tails = a tank lives. As armor starts going down (pred, rhino, etc) HT's become more efficient, carnifex's str becomes redundant/overkill, chance to turn tanks into cat food goes up pretty fast.
If any TMC manages to get into CC with one, winged ds'ing makes it easy, on a stationary tank, assuming no rc:
Carnifex needs a 4 on 2d6. 3 Attacks on the charge. Start adding attacks for additional ST.
HT needs a 6 on 2d6. 4 attacks on the charge. Start adding attacks for additonal ST. Example that is popular: Winged ds'ing HT with 2x st = 6 attacks on the charge.
ANYTHING with RC (Genestealers, Warriors, TMC's, Tyrant Guard, Lictors, Raveners, RC Mutants which includes possibly every model type in the army) has a semi-reliable chance to pop tanks. Anything with RC usually has a high number of attacks on the charge, therefore a crapload of chances to roll what is needed.
This is all on a 14 armor vehicle. I hope for the IG's sake they have 14 armor on all sides of every tank. If not, start lowering numbers. If you're able to kill a TMC who might be in cover in a turn of firing, you might actually be able to avoid losing a tank.
Hell lets throw in Biovores.
Biovores which hit rear armor, usually 10armor, with bio acid, need a 7 on 2d6 to glance. About 50% chance, again, with 3 biovores usually.
Rear/side armor from a carnifex or a HT is nearly an automatic in most cases. Reason I include rear armor is you're going to face deep strikers or seeding swarms in extreme cases.
If the tanks are not blown by turn 2, they won't be moving or shooting much. If that doesn't seem to be the case, the Tyranid player had a rash of bad luck due to the chance each shooting phase gives OR the Tyranid player took too few tank killers and its a free win. Nearly every game I play a tank is blown sky high/crippled on turn one, much to the wah wah of the opponent. Its not necessary to kill the tank, just keep it from firing and the game is won. TMC's start in or near cover. If he goes first, face a cover save/no los. If I got first, out I come guns blazing. With the possiblility of facing 5+ tmcs...eek.
So how would IG be able to cope? Tons of lascannon in heavy weapons teams, screened by fodder, and basalisks/lemans as far back as you can put them. And I mean like board edges far back. If I suspect this is going to happen, I'll seeding swarm and just end it instead of it being a shooting gallery.
A tank should be crippled or dead each turn. Come turn 3/4, there shouldn't be many heavy weapons from tanks going off any more. The TMC's keep on goin on with a couple of wounds down if any. Your heavy hitters can die from one shot at range. Mine need to be killed with 4x that much fire. Tanks? No prob. Lets not even get into walkers or dreads. I just see a big neon sign above their heads reading "Free Points! Shoot me! I'm over here!".
Troops? I don't think an IG player needs to know what happens to their troops.
You could pretty much replace "IG" with "Tau" and most would hold true. Only difference being I don't need to worry about tanks so much from Tau and imo Tau have better TMC killers. Would go lighter on TMC's and more leaper/infil/ds/SS heavy to close the gap. Fire warriors is teh scary long range ow.
if he did that (took lots of TMC's), then you should have lots of Lascannons, maybe on some sentinels since there's more of 'em. leman russes are always good for a lot of things.
Seeding Swarm Deathbringer: 16/5/13
Witch Hunters: Currently in development.
Hellhounds are great.
u need more laser canones
If it ain't broke, break it