That Olde Tomb Spyder/scarab Problem - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    LO Zealot Gojiratoho's Avatar
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    Upon further reflection, and thorough re-reading of all rules involved, the Majority T/Sv of Scarabs and Spyders actually makes the Spyders better.

    "But the Scarabs make the Spyder have a Toughness of 3, you fool, that's worse not better!"

    Hear me out. Yes, the majority of Scarabs means that the Spyder will be wounded easier, since having 2 Scarabs with it makes them majority. But the majority armor save makes them tougher.

    For example, let's say a unit of 1 TS and 2 SS are fired on from a 10 man Dev squad. For sake of argument, we'll give them 2 Las Cannons and 8 bolters. Statistically, they should only roll 7 hits, so we'll say its 2 Las hit and 5 bolters hit. Again, statistics say that 3 bolters should wound (Stx vs Tx-1), and the Las Cannons only have a 16% chance to miss, so we'll put it at 2 Las cannon hits and 3 bolter hits.

    Now here is where Majority Armor helps that TS. Since the squad hit with 5 shots, Majority armor dictates that you assign hits to the majority, then minority, until enough models die to make it equal or there is no more majority. In our scenario, it would go 2, 1, 2 (Scarabs save, Spyder save, Scarabs save). Now here is what could happen:

    Config 1: Give both Las hits to the scarabs. They are dead, but the Tomb Spyder is taking all three bolter hits and should come out of it with one if not both Ws still intact.
    Config 2: Assign one Las hit and one bolter hit to the Scarabs. One base is instakilled from the Las, and the other takes one wound from the bolter. Now assign a bolter hit to the Spyder. It should make its save. Now, a Las shot and a bolter shot are left to be distributed. Since there is no longer a Majority, you can assign them in whatever order you want. One Las cannon to the SS with 2 wounds left, killing it, and the last bolter to the Spyder, which it should save.

    The Spyder can’t be instakilled under this rule, only wounded easier when it is the minority to the Scarabs. And the Scarabs have to take hits first, being the majority armor save, so they can act as a shield vs. weapons that would AP a Spyder since the defender gets to assign which weapon hits he saves against first.

    Now, since the Spyder is a size 3 MC, the attacker can choose to allocate all attacks against it, meaning he’ll roll to wound vs. its book stats (which wouldn’t matter against Las fire anyway.

    So, in conclusion, the new rule does help more than it hurts. Anyone firing on the squad hoping to cause more wounds at a lower T value can be stopped by the Scarabs soaking up the first few hits, and anyone attacking just the TS is forced to roll against its standard T and also can’t affect the SS.

    Edit:stupid, sexy typos. Spell check is wonderful, but it does not help with misused grammar, or words that I meant to delete but accidently left in when I edited this post :realmad:

    Gyauayuayuayua! Ja! Ve vill crush da little girly men in deir little girl men awrmor! Ve vill see owur enemies driven befowur us, und hear da lahmentaytions of deir wemen. Und from owur home planet, de stayte uf Califowurnia, ve vill lawunch owur mighty offensive. Even if you kill us, ve'll be bach!! Gyauayauyauyauyau!

    -Arnoldunit Schwarzenecronegger; when questioned about the impending doom he would rain down upon the heads of his doomed enemies.

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  3. #2
    Son of LO Uzi-99's Avatar
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    86 (x7)

    Originally posted by Gojiratoho@Dec 6 2004, 18:12
    Config 1: Give both Las hits to the scarabs. They are dead, but the Tomb Spyder is taking all three bolter hits and should come out of it with one if not both Ws still intact.
    --- No, it's not... The TS only takes a single wound. Let's take a closer look at Your example.

    In our scenario, it would go 2, 1, 2 (Scarabs save, Spyder save, Scarabs save)
    --- Majority (Scarabs) take wounds first, lets put the 2 Lascannon on them.

    Next wound (Bolter) goes to TS.

    Wrap around, last 2 Bolter wounds go to Majority (Scarabs) again.


    Total:

    Scarabs save against 2 Lascannon and 2 Bolter wounds

    TS saves against 1 Bolter wound

    Even if the two Lascannon wounds kill off the Scarabs, the TS does not take more than 1 wound... This is because due the Mixed Armour save and the specific ruling in regards that only models which took the save may be removed as casualties.

    Since the two Bolter wounds were saved (or in this case failed) by Scarabs, if the two Lascannon shots kill the Scarabs the Bolter wounds are thus now discarded in perfect accordance with the Mixed Armour rules.


    It seems that You're under the impression that Majority is recalculated after casualties inflicted by some of the shots; it is not. All the wounds are dealt simultaneously.

    1. Roll to wound using Majority Toughness
    2. Distribute wounds. If Mixed Armour comes into play, use that for wound allocation
    3. Roll Armour Saves (or other applicable saves)
    4. Remove models which failed their save

    If You failed a Scarab save, You can only remove a Scarab model. If no Scarab models exist, the wound is discarded.


    Something to note is the "Remove whole models where possible". Due to Mixed Armour rules, it can sometimes be impossible to remove whole models. For example, depending on how many shots wounded and saves failed, You could end up in a situation where You have a unit consisting of a wounded Tomb Spyder and a wounded Scarab Swarm.

    However, bear in mind that You could not have one Scarab Swarm with 1 wound and another with 2. In this case one Scarab Swarm is removed and the other is unharmed, because it is possible to remove a whole model.
    "The meat things seek to destroy ourselves. They hunt us as we hunt them but they are weak and uncertain. The inferior flesh will be entirely destroyed, all biomatter consumed. Ourselves will fight to the last, all weak flesh must be devoured."

  4. #3
    LO Zealot Gojiratoho's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Uzi-99@Dec 6 2004, 11:41
    It seems that You're under the impression that Majority is recalculated after casualties inflicted by some of the shots; it is not. All the wounds are dealt simultaneously.
    [snapback]266955[/snapback]

    Actually, that is precisly the impression I am under, and since I don't have my rule book at work (something I should amend if I keep posting form work ), I can't agree or argue with you.

    Though by your explanation, there is no way I would want to argue with you, as disgarding two wounds is better than either of my two scenarios. It still stands that the Majority rules can only help a Spyder. And they can help Nids as well.

    Attaching a TMC to a slow unit of gaunts (termies, spinies) will protect either. If they attack the unit, hits go to the majority armor first (6+ gaunts) and there are usually 10-20 gaunts, and if they allocate all to the TMC, it uses it's own statline and the gaunts are protected.
    Gyauayuayuayua! Ja! Ve vill crush da little girly men in deir little girl men awrmor! Ve vill see owur enemies driven befowur us, und hear da lahmentaytions of deir wemen. Und from owur home planet, de stayte uf Califowurnia, ve vill lawunch owur mighty offensive. Even if you kill us, ve'll be bach!! Gyauayauyauyauyau!

    -Arnoldunit Schwarzenecronegger; when questioned about the impending doom he would rain down upon the heads of his doomed enemies.

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    First of all, wouldn't the Spyder be the be using the Scarabs' T/Sv when there is only 1 Scarab, giving that the Scarab has both the lowest Toughness and the lowest Save?

    Anywho,
    Now, since the Spyder is a size 3 MC, the attacker can choose to allocate all attacks against it, meaning he’ll roll to wound vs. its book stats (which wouldn’t matter against Las fire anyway.
    Now, you can't target a TS seperately if it is joined by Scarabs. You fire at the unit as a whole, aye?

  6. #5
    LO Zealot Gojiratoho's Avatar
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    74 (x4)

    Originally posted by Windmill+Dec 6 2004, 12:28--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Windmill &#064; Dec 6 2004, 12:2</div><div class='quotemain'>First of all, wouldn&#39;t the Spyder be the be using the Scarabs&#39; T/Sv when there is only 1 Scarab, giving that the Scarab has both the lowest Toughness and the lowest Save?
    [snapback]266986[/snapback]
    [/b]

    If there is only one Scarab base, no. The majority refers to models, not wounds, so there would need to be 2 or more scarabs to be a majority. And the Saves aren&#39;t changed under majority save, only order in which you allocate wounds.


    <!--QuoteBegin-Windmill
    @Dec 6 2004, 12:28
    Now, you can&#39;t target a TS seperately if it is joined by Scarabs. You fire at the unit as a whole, aye?
    [snapback]266986[/snapback]
    [/quote]
    I believe you can. I know you can ignore smaller units to target vehicles, and I think that extends to size 3 MC&#39;s. So even if they are attached to a unit, they can be singled out. But again, I don&#39;t have my book with me so I can&#39;t be positive until I get home.
    Gyauayuayuayua! Ja! Ve vill crush da little girly men in deir little girl men awrmor! Ve vill see owur enemies driven befowur us, und hear da lahmentaytions of deir wemen. Und from owur home planet, de stayte uf Califowurnia, ve vill lawunch owur mighty offensive. Even if you kill us, ve'll be bach!! Gyauayauyauyauyau!

    -Arnoldunit Schwarzenecronegger; when questioned about the impending doom he would rain down upon the heads of his doomed enemies.

  7. #6
    Son of LO Uzi-99's Avatar
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    In the case there isn&#39;t a clear Majority, You use the worse stat.

    Thus in a unit of 1 TS and 1 SS, the Majority Toughness is the SS since it&#39;s the worse stat.

    Originally posted by Gojiratoho+Dec 6 2004, 19:33--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Gojiratoho &#064; Dec 6 2004, 19:33)</div><div class='quotemain'>I believe you can. I know you can ignore smaller units to target vehicles, and I think that extends to size 3 MC&#39;s. So even if they are attached to a unit, they can be singled out. But again, I don&#39;t have my book with me so I can&#39;t be positive until I get home.[/b]

    --- TMCs can be singled out as per their special rules.

    Tomb Spyders with Scarabs aren&#39;t as easy... The problem is the 4thEd doesn&#39;t have clear-cut general rules in regards to MCs within units. Most MCs have their own special rules in regards to this situation, but not the TS...

    Logic states You should be able to target them separately (Spyder is a size 3 MC, Scarabs are size 1 Swarms), but the rules do not currently support this... Essentially, at the moment the TS can&#39;t be picked out as a separate target from the Scarabs it has created (which clearly makes no sense from a logical standpoint).

    It shouldn&#39;t pose much of a problem if the Necron player is a sporting chap, but if he&#39;s a powergaming rules lawyer...

    <!--QuoteBegin-GojiraToho

    Attaching a TMC to a slow unit of gaunts (termies, spinies) will protect either. If they attack the unit, hits go to the majority armor first (6+ gaunts) and there are usually 10-20 gaunts, and if they allocate all to the TMC, it uses it&#39;s own statline and the gaunts are protected.[/quote]
    --- And the Gaunts lose Fleet...

    And I fail to see the usefulness in this, since why wouldn&#39;t the opponent want to pick out the Tyrant as a target? In this case it makes no difference whether or not the Tyrant is with the Gaunts, since the opponent is shooting at the Tyrant anyway. And if they want to shoot the Gaunts... Well, whaddya know, now You have a chance at the Tyrant too&#33;

    Not quite the "protection" most people have in mind... =)
    "The meat things seek to destroy ourselves. They hunt us as we hunt them but they are weak and uncertain. The inferior flesh will be entirely destroyed, all biomatter consumed. Ourselves will fight to the last, all weak flesh must be devoured."

  8. #7
    LO Zealot Gojiratoho's Avatar
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    Yeah, I was going from the standpoint that TMCs could be picked out, so I thought that regular MCs could be as well. If they can&#39;t, that just provides further protection to the Spyder than before.

    And as for the TMC and gaunt thing, it was just a different tactic. There are some benefits, but nothing I need to delve into in the Necron forum.




    + Yes and no. Yes to the idea that Spyder&#39;s can&#39;t be picked out means the Scarabs
    + definetly work like a shield. No because while he is a GW specialist, it&#39;s not a rule
    + until it&#39;s in an FAQ or an issue of WD. But thanks for the info.
    +
    &#092;/
    Gyauayuayuayua! Ja! Ve vill crush da little girly men in deir little girl men awrmor! Ve vill see owur enemies driven befowur us, und hear da lahmentaytions of deir wemen. Und from owur home planet, de stayte uf Califowurnia, ve vill lawunch owur mighty offensive. Even if you kill us, ve'll be bach!! Gyauayauyauyauyau!

    -Arnoldunit Schwarzenecronegger; when questioned about the impending doom he would rain down upon the heads of his doomed enemies.

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    If a Tomb Spyder has created Scarab Swarms, can the Tomb Spyder be singled out since being a Monstrous Creature, or does the opponent have to fire on the unit as a whole?

    Thanks.
    /Dan


    A Tomb Spyder with Scarab Swarms would be treated as a single unit for the purpose of shooting.

    Cheers, hear from you soon,

    Pete

    Games Workshop Hobby Specialist
    Does this answer your question?

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    Haha, I guess Windmill got to the question first =)

    The only thing I have is the rule in the 4th ed book (somewhere around P.28 or the earlier sections) that say if an enemy gets more hits than the number of models in a unit, they get to elect *one* model to receive the first wound (and thus save, if possible)...

    does that mean the opponent can elect the TS to receive the first wound, and does he or yourself get to choose if it&#39;s the bolter or Lascannon wound?

  11. #10
    LO Zealot Gojiratoho's Avatar
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    Yes, the opponent can elect to make the TS make a save, but the defender chooses which weapon he makes the save against. So if I were the Cron player, I&#39;d take the Bolter hit on the TS if I&#39;m forced to make a save with the TS.
    Gyauayuayuayua! Ja! Ve vill crush da little girly men in deir little girl men awrmor! Ve vill see owur enemies driven befowur us, und hear da lahmentaytions of deir wemen. Und from owur home planet, de stayte uf Califowurnia, ve vill lawunch owur mighty offensive. Even if you kill us, ve'll be bach!! Gyauayauyauyauyau!

    -Arnoldunit Schwarzenecronegger; when questioned about the impending doom he would rain down upon the heads of his doomed enemies.

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