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Here we have the data from a spread sheet designed to show the results betweeen 15 Kroot Carnivores shooting against 7 Tactical Space Marines with just bolters. We assume that the Kroot shoot first simply for the sake of argument. This does not feel right to me and I was wondering if anyone could tell me that my math is wrong, please no posts about getting into melee because there the Kroot win more.
Number Bs Strength Toughnes Save Hits Wounds
7 4 4 4 3 4.666666667 3.111111111
Number Bs Strength Toughnes Save Hits Wounds
15 3 4 3 None 7.5 3.75
Space Marines Remaining
1 2 3 4 5
5.75 5.75 4.712962963 4.712962963 3.85048011
6 7 8 9 10
3.85048011 3.130607631 3.130607631 2.526683583 2.526683583
1 2 3 4 5
15 12.44444444 12.44444444 10.34979424 10.34979424
6 7 8 9 10
8.638469745 8.638469745 7.247088576 7.247088576 6.124118095
It should be noted that, when the Space marines get the first turn of firing, they do come out ahead after five rounds, and that if continued over about 10 game rounds, the Space Marines are actually more likely to come out victorious.
However, after six game rounds of firing, the Space Marines will have notably failed to kill the Kroot (even though the Kroot are out in the open and devoid of saves) which I think will tend to bely common impressions of both the Kroot and GW's beloved Marines.
The one key ingredient that you are overlooking is moral factors. The marines will not break for taking casualties, but the Kroot will break eventually. They likely will not take a moral check on the first turn, but for ever turn afterwards, the Kroot will be taking moral checks most likely, but since the marines are fearless they will keep on shooting, that is if you consider that they don't assault each other.
It really does then come down to who shoots first, who can rapid fire first, etc.
Neglecting that kroot should be in cover is also denying them a major tactical advantage that they have, but one that will be often denied them by a reasonably intelligent opponent.
It is true that the Kroot are about 14% more likely to fail any moral check that they are forced to make than the Space Marines are likely to fail theirs, however, it is very unlikely that either side will have to make checks due to shooting. For example, for the first six game rounds, the percent losses on either side never much exceed 20%. They don't start approaching the requisite 25% untill the eighth game round.
In melee, the kroot are still heavily favoured to win, but their leadership is a bit more likely to come into play. Given the best possible situation for the Space Marines--they get the charge and the Kroot are not in cover--it is still unlikely that the Kroot will actually lose a round of combat, even the first round (the round in which the Space Marines, obviously, performe the best.)
Finally, advancing to rapid fire range is a death sentence to either side. Basically, they will hit 24 inches apart, and whichever side moves first will not only lose a round of shooting, but will also absorb the enemy's rapid firing shots first. Neither side is going to advance to rapid fire range.
However, yes. It will come down largely to who gets the first shots off, though in both cases--that of the Space Marines shooting first and the Kroot shooting first--the end result is pretty close. If the Kroot are in woods, though, they are heavily favoured to win, even if the Space Marines shoot first.
I think Kroot suck because I have them, and every time I use them they are a waste of points because all they do is move and get shot down
Perhaps you just need to practice with them more
Any unit in the game is useful in the hands of a skilled commander.
Kroot are good in the hands of someone who actually knows how to use them well. I for one love to use a large kroot squad so I can have some type of assault.
Marines are fearless?? what!? I've seen many a marine run off the table because common sense (more likely cowardice) got to him.Originally posted by Maus154@Dec 10 2004, 230
The one key ingredient that you are overlooking is moral factors. The marines will not break for taking casualties, but the Kroot will break eventually. They likely will not take a moral check on the first turn, but for ever turn afterwards, the Kroot will be taking moral checks most likely, but since the marines are fearless they will keep on shooting, that is if you consider that they don't assault each other.[snapback]271973[/snapback]
Perfectly said. You also need to remember that their strengths lie in their forest attributes. Remember that.Originally posted by Dragonmaster787@Dec 12 2004, 18:41
Kroot are good in the hands of someone who actually knows how to use them well. I for one love to use a large kroot squad so I can have some type of assault.[snapback]273562[/snapback]
The only thing that is stopping you from being what you can be is what you think other people think about you.
If you could say one thing to the world, what would it be?
Kroot can be used very well in all sorts of terrain. They do die easily(not upgraded) granted, easier than most because mine don't have armour saves( i consider kroot shapers not worth it) and they cant follow up an assault, have to consolidate. But they can be very helpful in a big fight. Mine our very efficient anchors and have before stopped marine squads. 1:1 vs a marine squad with heavy weapons, they can hold their own. All in all i think they are worth it. And they do as much if not more damage than a FW squad
What lies at the bottomless gulf between the soul and the heart?
There are several things your not taking into account....
First, A Kroot Squad ISNT meant as a shooting force.
Also, Its hard to compare then in a statistical basis. A good commander will move and shoot and assault in a tactical format that best takes advantage of the squads size, location, and ability.
Also, A Kroot squad is really not at its best unless it has a full compliment of 20. Also, a Shaper is GREATLY suggested... Keep that sucker up front and make sure to use em in every assault. A Shaper will tear things up as long as their are enough models in action to keep it there.
If you can move your Kroot good enough, You can end up getting upwards of 30 attacks on a charge, with tons of back ups to finish off whomever your target it.