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Anyone think it's a little odd that for a dying race Eldar can take 20 strong squads of what's essentially cannon fodder?
I'm wondering what people would do to fix it if they had the chance, i'd probably make Guardians 10 pts per model (4+ save and a better weapon) so they'll be less horde like without castrating the existing Guardian hordes.
This has already been discussed alot in the "Eldar being left out" thread..... search before you post it will save everyone alot of time.
Tenozuma - The Burninator... I came, I saw, I posted.Originally Posted by Aussie Bogan
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Perhaps it have been debated before, but it have not been outdebated yet.
I agree, guardians as cannon-fodder suck, however I donÂ´t think that adding heavy armor is the answer. Here is what I would do:
1) Increase I to 5. The guardians are meant to be close range assault troops, but with I4 assaulting is pointless. With I5, it would make sense to charge after fiering instead of just have them stand and shoot less than 12" away from the enemy.
2) Improve their armor just a bit. 4+ would be overpowering, but an "advanced" 5+ armor, that needs Ap4 or better to pierce would make sense. After all, it is not some crummy IG flakjacket..
3) Increase the price to 10 points.
That would make guardians good, without overpowering them. Uh... I will get flamed for this :unsure:
No flaming from me, Sareld, but I am of the opinion that one cannot "fix" the Guardian situation without largely impacting the rest of the Eldar army. If you make Guardians 10 points, then what will Dire avengers be? How will their stats go up? And since all exarchs have the same stats, it will impact them too.
Eldar are not known for being weak, only being played weak by certain players. Altering our core troops will make the entire army even stronger. Not that I mind, but I know other players would.
The way I look at it is that Guardians offer just one more option for the Eldar general. We have the most customizable army in 40k (with the possible exception of Tyranids with their "Design your own Hivefleet" rule)...so if one Eldar player wants a horde army, he can go ahead and take it --- I agree that it doesn't make much sense, fluffwise, but then, that still leaves you the option of taking Dire Avengers, who are better Guardians and for the same points cost you listed. If you want to honour the fluff and have a smaller army of elite troops, go all aspect, or just use Dire Avengers and Rangers as your troops choices. I do, and it works great.
Redesigning the Guardians to make them better only turns them into a troop we already have: DA's. So that's a moot point. I think the only way to effectively "fix" the problem is just give the Guardians more options, which, I hear, is the current plan anyway. Now it is rumoured that regular Guardians will have the option to take Lasblasters, giving them a Str. 3 24" weapon. Many players have already complained that the Lasblaster is inferior to the Shuricat, but IMO those players fail to see the reason for the change --- you're giving up strength for greater range, which many other players complain about in regards to the Shuricat. If you prefer power over range, stop complaining and stick with the shuricats. Guardians should also be able to take a variety of grenades, and maybe some other, new gear as well. Also, apparantly regular Guardians will now be able to take special weapons like flamers and fusion guns. If so, great. The one other option I would suggest is that every Eldar army have access to Black Guardians...just a one or two squad limit. That extra BS or WS increase is the only reason I have to take Guardians at all.
The one other thing to consider is that a lot of Eldar players want new psychic powers, and GW is apparantly listening. Both the Farseers and Warlocks will likely get new powers, and since both can readily join Guardian squads, this will certainly have an impact on them (on a side note, ever have a Guardian squad w/ a Warlock w/ conceal, and then have an IC Farseer w/ Fortune join the squad. That gives you a 5++ save (basically) with the ability to reroll misses. That makes Guardians as survivable as possible. Finally, there is also rumoured to be a new unit for the Eldar: the Bonesinger. Since these individuals in the fluff are the builders of the Eldar race and thus not great fighters, it would make sense (to me, anyway) that the Bonesinger unit will be a rare unit able to join Guardian squads and augment them with special abilities, rules, or equipment.
All these changes would bring with them minor points increases that each Eldar general would have to decide if its worth paying for them. It would make Guardians as customizable as the rest of the Eldar army, which will certainly appeal to any Eldar General, even those, like me, who don't like Guardians at present. It also wouldn't unbalance the Eldar list terribly and wouldn't mess up our stat lines, which would have a domino effect throughout our whole army. I say keep the Guardians as is, but give them more options and maybe just a WS or BS increase to put them on level with black guardians. That's all I'd need.
Last edited by Houston; April 25th, 2005 at 15:50.
I donÂ´t see how making the guardians fieldworthy would tip over the balance of the eldar army. Sure, It would bring the guardians closer to the DAs, but that doesenÂ´t force the DA to change IMO.
Neither do I see the DAs as an alternative to the guardians.. they lack options even more than the regular guardians, and are simply to expensive for the role they play. Plus I *hate* their furry helmets. You donÂ´t load spirit stones and holo-fields on your vypers neither, do you? A DA is like a navy seal equiped with a knife; Dangerous? Hell yes, he is not equipped for going to battle.
Rangers are a fine allternative, but damn expensive and very specialized.
Furthermore, I donÂ´t care that I farseers and warlocks can join guardian squads, that is not what is being discussed. Guardians need to be better on their own, the whole psyker/platform discussion has nothing to do with the guardians themselves, whom I really wish would stop sucking.
Last edited by Sareld; April 25th, 2005 at 15:52.
I wouldn't. IMHO, they don't need fixing. Much... :shifty:Originally Posted by Dark Lioness
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Back in the second edition days guardians were equipped with lasguns and shuricats were an upgrade. So what about 7 pts guardians with lasguns, upgradable to catapult at +1 pts per model ? This would double their fire range making them able to support their hw platform, leaving the heavy infantry role to DA
As has been mentioned by most, this topic has been beat to death on the other threads.
Guardians are great if you use them properly. Points wise they're great where they are. As for bringing out the lasguns, ack! Those models sucked (I have a bunch), and why would eldar use flashlights?
The idea behind a squad of "cannon fodder" being huge is great, especially since you can fortune and conceal them, thus giving them an overall save better than any trooper I can think of for a mere 12 pts each (3.5++ save). I mean really, if you were a dying race, wouldn't you send every man, woman, and child into battle to keep your race alive?
How about this for you people that don't like using the guardians. Wraithlords stay heavy, wraithguard become troops, and guardians become elite. That way you could field no guardians, but only machines... oh wait, Iyanden is this more or less already.
What about an aspect only army, so the basic guardian can stay on the sideline and enjoy their life of arts and crafts. Oh wait, beiltan...and how do you become an aspect warrior without spending most of your life as a warrior (outside of being as guardian), just a fluff question?
Perhaps giving the guardians warlock abilities as a whole, since all eldar are psychic, then giving warlocks the current farseer abilities, and giving the farseers new powers? This would be one of the few changes that I would be happy with, since I think guardians rock the way they are (check other thread).
Speaking of second edition guaridans, they were great back then too, especially since you could send an exarch of any sort with em, and warlocks and farseers were the total powerhouses.
Anyways, my vote stays with leaving them alone.
Tarzen, everytime you reply to a topic about the guardians being unfluffy or whatever, I find your respond kind of rude. Everyone has a right to have their own oppinions, and yours are that guardians are fine the way they are, and I respect that eventhough I disagree. I would be happy if you did the same, and respected other peoples oppinions instead of getting upset.
Hmm Guardians need to be revved up a bit... yeah seriously..
hmm i think storm guardians need init 5, they seriously do, but even still thats not entirely enough to crack the toughness 4 lol.
for defender guardians, as said before.. more shooty is preferred highly..
like lasblasters, atleast increase the range and keep it assualt gun.