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Just thought everyone might like to hear and perhaps comment on some house rules that I think should almost always be used when playing with Harlies. Even if you don't use Harlies, if your opponent brings them to the table I say insist that they follow these simple rules, to protect from the possibility of creating an army built out of pure cheese.
Units classified as Fast Attack or Heavy Support take up Fast Attack or Heavy Support slots instead of Elites slots when in differing armies to their main army, but you may only have a grant total of units from other armies equal to the elites choices available in your game configuration
6 Wraithlords. Need I say more? If so, amongst the million other potential reasons why this is good, it's because it really opens up the Harlequins to the Dark Eldar, who normally would have to sacrifice some Warriors or Wyches, some of the most useful units they can get other than whichever choice they are allowed to take as Troops. Meanwhile, Eldar could fill their slots with Harlies and still have a nicely balanced force because they have Fast Attack and Heavy Support units that don't suck.
Units classed as HQ may not be taken in any other army, except when agreed to prior to the match. (also, even asking for such agreement should only be in extreme circumstances)
Even if your opponent doesn't normally care about your Harlies, chances are he will care when they suddenly grow an Avatar, an Archite and an Archon with retinue, in addition to their normal HQ. Also because it's stupid to have an HQ from another army taking an elites choice. HQs for armies command their own armies, they don't serve some other lord.
Harlequins may take units from one or the other of Dark Eldar or Eldar, using their units as Elites if Troops or Elites, and Heavy Support or Fast attack if they correspond. The same limitations apply, in that they may not take more units from the other army than they have Elites choices available.
Partially because it doesn't specifically state it in Chronicles 39, but kind of makes vague reference to the potential for Harlies having allies, which seems just as valid as allies having Harlies. However, any army that combines Eldar and Dark Eldar seems just plain wrong.
That's all the things I've thought of that the Harlies *really* need in order to make them a more balanced force, but if anyone wants to comment on these ideas, or wants to add their own ideas, feel free.
PS: Might want a sticky, even if this is the only post in this thread. I may sound egotistical in saying this, but I think these house rules are extremely important for the enjoyment of Harlequins, as allies or as a force themselves.
Uh, I don't think that the Harlequins need any house rules to make them fair or balanced. If you think that they are too good, their basic troops, unupgraded, can be out numbered by nids 5 to 1 and get no save in cc. The harlequins are powerful but almost no one plays them and being outnumbered that much can't be considered unbalance on the harlequins side.
Also I have looked at the harlequin codex and I think that your mixed up. The Eldar, Dark Eldar and Exodites can take units of Harlequins, not the other way around. It sounds like your saying that harlequins can take units from other armies.
For the HQ thing, the HQ would be leading their section under the command of the the entire army commander who is commanding the main army.
Originally Posted by The Paint Monkey
I'm not trying to say that the Harlequins are cheesy. I'm trying to say that it would be extremely easy for someone to use the Harlequins to create a cheesy force. I'm not going to post up any lists, because I don't have the Eldar codex, and a cheesy force would be a lot easier with Eldar/Harlies than anything else.
However, there are some important considerations:
- It makes little sense for Harlies to be taken in other armies without the ability to take other armies units in a Harlequin army in the same fashion. The rules for Harlies even illustrates this when it adds the aside of being able to take a detachment of Harlequins in a Dark Eldar or Eldar force or vice versa
- As I've said, 6 wraithlords. Being able to take such a choice that blatantly can be nothing but Heavy Support choice in place of Elites choice makes it possible to create extremely unbalanced lists.
- You really think it's fair to be able to take a single HQ choice as an Elites choice? I find it hard to buy your reasoning of the HQ leading the section under the command of a separate army list. Why? Well, first of all, you don't need to take a separate HQ to take Harlies. Second of all, you don't need to take Harlies to take an HQ. Thirdly, the Harlies don't have any rules by which they have to maintain *any* form of proximity - you could have a Shadowseer leading some Striking Scorpions and some Death Jesters hanging around on the other side of the board with a Pathfinder squad or two, for all the rules state. Last, and most importantly, it actually states in the rules that the armies are supposed to be led by two separate players if possible.
Of course, you don't need to follow any of those rules. You could just say that Harlequins can't be taken as Elite choices in other Eldar forces, and can only be used as Detachments. But I think this removes an interesting rule that allows a bit of extra diversification in the various Eldar armies.
Ok for starters, there are no Wraithlords in Harlequins so you can't get 6 of them.\
Also for the thing about including eldar in a harlequin force, if you want to keep reading between the lines and saying things that aren't there, then I can't convince you otherwise.
Ok I know that the HQ thing is cheap. It would be annoying to have a farseer, an avatar, and a Greater Harlequin. That is a rule that I can agree with but if I was taking a unit of harlequins I would take a Solitaire with a harlequins kiss, power blades, a shuriken pistol, a D-Field, and bio explosive amunition.
Originally Posted by The Paint Monkey
rules for harlequin wraithlords where published in a citadel journal ages ago. basically the same as a regular lord but a cover save and a d-cannon option.
thus it is possible to take 3 harlequin wraithlords as elites. then you can take 3 regular wraiths as heavies.
Ok sorrey I had never read that, I was just going by the codex on the GW website. Anyway, how come this is the only topic on here, does anyone actually play harlequins or is it just something cool that people read and talk about but never use?
Last edited by Warrior47; July 2nd, 2005 at 18:14.
Originally Posted by The Paint Monkey
well the harlequin codex is a bit crappy IMO. a harlie squad stands no chance against any other combat squad (per point) with a large amount of attacks per model. eg orks or bloodclaws. harlequins low S means that even with the high no. of special (eg kiss or power weapon) attacks that they get they still either won't bypass power armour or won't wound a tough enemy (depending on the weapon). the enemy squad will then annihilate them because of their low squad size and lack of any armour save whatsoever.
lets have a look at harlequins vs. DE wyches. and pretend its a wych cult so they're troops.
advantages of harlies:
-they have a 4" coherency
-they have a great cover save always
-they have an extra attack, higher WS and LD
-2 can take power weapons/kisses
-the leader has access to the potent armoury
advantages of wyches:
-can have a transport (thats open topped too so they can charge from it
-half the price of a harlie
-the squad leader can have an agoniser
-the most important thing ever. a dodge save.
really the harlie list would be so much more playable with a dodge save, i really can't beleive that they don't have it.
the fluff is that a wyches years of training in gladiatorial combat allows them to easily avoid stuff.
why doesn't the harlie combination of holo-suit and amazing cc ability let them have a similar save?
thats one of the main problems with the harlie list. they lack any sort of inv save whatsoever. you'll be mainly relying on your characters to be doing all the damage. and while they can do a lot of damage in cc. woe betide any of them getting in front of a warp spider squad.
I haven't read much of the above posts, mostly just the first one...however, I do want to point out that EldarOnline had published a revised set of rules for Harlequins that did, indeed, prohibit some of the "cheesy" things people complain about them all the time. You should try to search for it, it's actually pretty neat. They did a really good job on it.
The harlie wraithlord is the only cheesy thing on the list, and it's even less acceptable than the rest of the beta list.
You pay a few extra points and get a hideous deathdealer upgrade for what is already a very good unit point for point.
The harlies themselves are anything but cheesy, they are a hideous amount of points especially when plasma grenades need to be as standard sincne otherwise your opponent will stand in cover laughing at them. And they really dont do enough damage against the enemy for the points, especially against power armour.
Death jesters seem good, an untargetable Brightlance wielder, until you realise you have to line troops who aren't rushing toward HtH to sield him and so he very quickly becomes targetable.
The dodge save would help immensly, most troops hitting on 5 with an invulnerable save, they are missing something though in terms of damage, although if they didn't pop like baloons every time anyone waved a knife anywhere near them they might not need to do more damage........
Ask not a question of the eldar, for they will give you three answers all of which are true and horrifying to know.
I don't understand.. If harli wraithlords were printed in a journal a long time ago wouldn't the newer rules for harlequins in codex on the GW site stand to be the only list you can legally use?
I have a Harli army I want to use but the rules get confusing when people are talking about rules from several different places.
I would love for you guys to break it down for me since I am a new 4th edition player, I used to play 40k back in rogue trader days when harliquens could get stolen tanks and they had grenade launchers on thier backs.
Thanks for any information u guys can give me.