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I'm interrested in your opinions about this issue. I personally use warriors. The reason is, that when I move my Immortals 6" forward, they can still shoot 24". This means that they can shoot at most units in the first turn without the need to use VoD. The warriors have a reach of 24" IF they stand still. If they move, then they have a reach of 12". With VoD, it is possible to get within 12" on the first turn. And if you have a large enough warrior squad(16+ in my experience), they can take a round of beating and still be left to get WBB. If my warriors scatter out of 12" range, it doesn't matter that much, because they would be out of range anyway if I moved them.
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Before answering, I need to clarify my opinion. I use the Veil to be able to deep strike to units in the back of the enemies lines. I like to try to take out a few heavy support units and then teleport to safety.
I like using Immortals for a few reasons:
1. They are able to scatter more and still get their two shots off. My main reason to use the Veil is to take out the units providing heavy fire support. As these units are typically in the back of the enemy formation using the Veil is the only real method of getting there to do the job.
2. Their shots are more powerful and typically more plentiful. Since teleportation counts as movement Warriors can only shoot 12". Even when they can fire on their target Immortals have a STR 5 as opposed to a STR 4.
3. They have a toughness of 5 which means they can survive longer without the need to rely on WBB roles. This has really saved me on a few occaisions when my deep strike placement has been less than perfect and they take a beating.
I am no math major but I like working out the numbers for things like this. I am assuming the enemy are standard space marines with bolters. I assume 10 Immortals vs. 15 Warriors as these cost about the same.
All calculations are approximate so don't complain about the rounding.
Enemy within 12"
Warriors Squad (15 Warriors) against Space Marines (10) with bolters:
30 x STR 4 shots - 20 will hit (BS 4) - 10 will wound (T4) - 3 will fail save
Immortal Squad (10 Immortals) against Space Marines (10) with bolters:
20 x STR 5 shots - 13 will hit (BS 4) - 9 will wound (T4) - 3 will fail save
By these simple calculations they both seem to perform the same against marines at 12". Remember that any range greater than 12" and the Warriors cannot fire at all.
The difference in return fire is more noticable:
Enemy within 12"
Space Marines with bolters against Warriors Squad (15 Warriors):
20 x STR 4 shots - 13 will hit (BS 4) - 6 will wound (T4) - 2 will fail save - 1 fail WBB
Space Marines with bolters against Immortal Squad (10 Immortals):
20 x STR 4 shots - 13 will hit (BS 4) - 4 will wound (T5) - 1 will fail save - .5 fail WBB
If I didn't make any dumb calculation errors they both seem to be very similar. But in the end I think that the Toughness 5 Immortals are a much more survivable as a deep strike unit. They allow you to make more mistakes and pay less dearly for bad tactical decisions.
that information is highly valueable.Originally Posted by LordCreampuff
i'm still going to use immortals just because of the range.
for warriors to have a target means they can be assaulted which isn't the best of idea's because 80% of the time the unit that is behind enemy lines will be all by itself.
on a complete different note.
i love deepstriking behind a unit i'm about to assault. then you can shoot with both units, assault with the one in front and have your enemy break and run directly into your unit behind and poof...all destroyed.
Yep, you made one mistake i saw, if this is all aproximations.
On the last line with marines shooting immortals, one of the immortals fail their amour save, yet 5 fail their WBB!
But otherwise its very good.
One nasty thing I sometimes use againest a friends khorne army is to take out his ranged units like the defiler, then constantly redirect his troops away from my own army core with one VOD unit with assualt weapons (because they have to move towards the closest enemy unit and charge it when possible because of blood frenzy) which means I stay out of CC which he excels at and I get to shoot him to pieces.
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I agree that immortals are better, but it is better to use warriors in those small games where you must fill your troop choises.
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With warriors you have numbers so say you VoD a group of 20 compared to a group of 10 immortals. The warriors have the better durbility as it will take much more shots to kill the entire squad compared to 10 immortals. I dont VoD anything as my oppenets usually have at least 3 plasma cannons or equivalent.
-i use the VOD with warriors to escape from offensive armies, DE, eldar, nids, orcs. it keeps my warriors alive and shooting, and me from phasing out.
-i use the VOD with immortals as a powerfull attack unit agiainst stationary tau aor IG, first turn right next to them is very good.
-a note, using the VOD with warriors is far more dangerous as 15-20 man squads are much easier to lose a portion of than 8-10man squads.
-in situations other than asssaulty eldar/DE/nids/orcs, or stationary tau/IG i would not use the VOD