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I am in the Shas'el camp because I have never had anyone give me reasons on why I would rather an O.
In reality, a Shas'el is only 12/13p less than a Shas'O.
Let's get this right from the start. Twinlinking on a Shas'O is not worth it, however twinlinking on a Shas'el is.
So, how do our 12p cheaper friends compare?
They have -1W, -1A, -1WS, and -1Ld. I don't think any of those are going to make any difference, as the commander usually dies to instakill and usually doesn't see combat. These are important assumptions for the 'el camp. As soon as you start sticking your commander in front of bolters that don't have a krak, then the 'O starts looking better. Again, as soon as the commander is in combat, the 'O is worth the points.
The only real difference is the damage each can do.
For the helios vs infantry. A Shas'O hits 2.5 compared to the Shas'el 2.44. These numbers do not say enough. The Shas'O costs 43.2p per hit, while the Shas'el costs 39.27 per hit. In other words, the Helios is more efficient as a Shas'el.
For the fireknife: The Shas'O is better at being an all-rounder. It is true that, just like the above example, he costs more per hit. However, Shas'O gets better if you are firing at both vehicles and infantry. I do not see much of a problem with the fireknife Shas'O. I just prefer Shas'el again because the fireknife-6 costs less per hit, which is helpful against heavy infantry, and the fireknife-7 costs less per hit too, which is helpful against light vehicles.
It's all down to a matter of tactics. If you are content in hiding a commander until you feel it's right to use him, them you are likely to be better off spending more points elsewhere and getting a Shas'el. If, however, you prefer to utilise your commander the whole game, making sure he's always doing something to 'make his points back', then a fireknife Shas'O might be for you.
Now, I'm just a simple country chicken(Futurama quote) so I don't know about your numbers and what-not, but I prefer me a good ol deep-striking Shas'o Fire Knife. But, I've had good luck with them lately.
Two games ago he single-handedly took out a Defilier before moving on and popping at least three Thousand Suns Marines. And last game he mowed down most of a squad of orks before killing 5 havocs in three turns(he was too stubborn to move them). I've had situations where my Shas'o was down to one wound remaining in the past and was my last surviving unit, so he was definetly worth it that time.
Now, would an 'el performed just as well? Probably, since I had drones with him(another topic). But I don't like to Twin-Link so the extra BS(which you failed to mention) helps out.
Record as of 26 December for my Static Tau Cadre.
10 wins, 0 losses, and 1 draw.
Last game: Victory over Necron in a 600 point "kill em all" that lasted til turn 10 ending with a phase out.
Originally Posted by onlainari
I suppose it depends on what you use them for. I use my Shas-O as a heavy armour / high toughness model hunter (such things as termies, oliterators, kans etc) and for vehicle hunting. I prefer the BS5 as it practically guarantees hits and I equip my Shas-O with a shield Gen, just for those occasions when he takes a hit from the krak / lascannon I didn't notice.
I used to quote all the numbers and averages etc, but I think 3.93 pts difference per hit and 0.06 difference for hitting efficiency is to negligable to be bothered about, if the Shas-o kills a landraider or a unit of termies he has made his point back(and thats where the BS5 comes in).
So to me it comes down to other factors
I prefer the plasma. fusion, multi, shield gen helios configuration to twin linked plasma. The BS5 evens it out.
The fireknife well I dont rate it anyway.
The 133 pts as opposed to the 108 is worth the extra for me. The improved BS and extra wound and LD10 are cheap upgrades for 25pts.
Also if he does get caught in CC that WS4 and extra attack, wound plus 1pt extra of LD(again all for a mere 25pts, cheap) allied with the Shield gen really does make a huge difference. My Shas-el has endured 4 rounds of combat with a space marine HQ unit and survived till games end(lots of power weapons and a power fist)
I dont hide my commander, I use a drone squad as protection. I dont join him to the drone unit now (after advice from this forum thanks fella's). I send him out hunting and the drone sq, extra wound and shield gen kep him viable while that improved BS does the biz.
I used to use a Shas-el as a 2nd HQ choice and I always found the Shas-O more efficient at killing things.
When it came to dropping one the Shas-el went even though it meant a bit of juggling to balance the list, there was no way I was losing the Shas-O
So all in all i will have to respectfully disagree, but the Shas-el is no mean character in smaller tighter points lists.
in my 2500 point list im using a shas'0 with shield gen hw multi tracker fusion plasma and 2 shas'vre bodyguards with fusion and missile pods shiled gen and hw multi
then i have a shas'el with tl plasma and a shield gen, however, i can switch that arround and make the shas'el a shas'o with shield gen tl plasma and 2 shas'vre bodyguards with tl plasma and shield gen and a shas'el with fusion plasma shield gen and hw multi, this way i dont go overboard with my 2 hqs but they wont be defficient in hunting any army, i usually use the tl suits as an 'o however because of the abundance of 3+ saves i see round here(one of the few non SM players)
I prefer the Shas'O. 25 points is not expensive for all the bonuses he gets, the BS and wound being the biggest difference. For 15 points a Space marine Captain can become a Master, and all he gets is an attack and extra leadership, and his attacks are still inferior to a Shas'O's (in number).
I only think it makes a large difference on tiny-point games, when avery point is needed.
Oh yeah, a pair of twin linked weapons is less effective than two multi-tracked weapons. If you had 2 suits, one with twin plasma and one with twin missiles, they would be worse than a pair of Fireknives. They have the same average of hitting, but if you get lucky with a twin-linked weapon and always hit, then the linking doesn't help. If you get lucky with a pair af weapons, you get more kills. Simply put, its better to have two multi-trackers than 2 twin-linked (without tossing in many other factors). Not to mention that the commanders (El and O) can have 3 HW systems, and your not taking advantage of that if you twin-link.
Points aside, the 'O is blatantly better than the 'El. Just find 25 un-needed points in your army list.
"I'd rather fight 100 Hammerheads than 20 Battlesuits" -Vinnie, an Ultramarine.
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They're both good, I like the 'el in lower point games (often 2 'els) and I tend to upgrade them as I get into larger point games and try to squeeze more and more out the suits I take (I try to avoid taking more than 4 if at all possible so I can keep them in seperate squads, 2 HQ's and 2 Elites).
yea, but a pair of twin linked weapons is also cheaper than a pair of multitracked weapons...
You're allowed your opinion, but can you back this part up?Originally Posted by Shas'O Briguy
Ok, burning eye + deathrain vs fireknife + fireknife
115 vs 130
specialised vs general
If you could shoot the burning eye at infantry and the deathrain at a light vehicle, vs shooting one fireknife at infantry and one fireknife at a light vehicle, the be+dr is better than the 2 fk. If you were shooting both at infantry I guess you are better off with the fireknives. So, do you always shoot at infantry?
I don't like fireknives because there is always something better whatever they shoot at. If my deathrain in useless because I'm versing all infantry marines, then that's fine, he's cheap and still a scoring unit that will deny vp, and my helios will have a party. I better not get too deep into my crisis config preferences though, it's all in my article.
I guess once you become a really good tactician, the Shas'el Helios-6 starts looking better than it's Shas'O equivalent (the 133p with shield). However, the choice between a fireknife 'O or fireknife-6/7 'el depends on play style, as opposed to skill.
Honestly, this old discussion is gettin' too old. :huh:
Almost nobody, ever, switches to "the other side." If you like a Shas'el, nobody who likes a Shas'o can swap you to using a Shas'o. If you prefer the Shas'o, none of these Shas'el people with all the complicated math can persuade you to use a Shas'el.
So why do you people still do it?
Basically, I prefer the Shas'o because of one thing. BS5. And while the points I pay for that might be more than I'd pay for a twin-linking Shas'el or anything, I don't really care. 2+ to hit is wonderful. That's pretty much three melted Marines with Fusion/Plasma, which is one of the configurations I prefer the most on a Shas'o. It has extra wounds, meaning it will survive longer when the enemy gets into CC with it. It will not die due to insta-death, because any of our HQ's are IC's, and I never put the Shas'o with a squad - I always have something closer to the enemy than my Shas'o is, guaranteeing his safety vs. enemy S8 ap3 weapons.
I'm not saying I never have/never will use a Shas'el. On the contrary, I think the Shas'el is good, too, but when I simply want the sheer accuracy without twin-linking, and the extra survivability of an extra wound for CC, I will always take the Shas'o. I don't care about the math or any of that - I've seen it all before, and it never persuaded me to take an 'el over an 'o. The biggest reason I would ever take an 'el over an 'o is fluff. And, chances are, if I get my Tau rolling again, I will probably take an 'el for the fluff. But when it comes to winning the match, I grab the 'o so I can blast away some of those "invincible" guys in the enemy's army.
^_^ All up to preference.