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I can't find where the old 40K Background forum used to be, so I'll post this here... not sure if I should also post it on the Chaos board... maybe I'll post a link from there to here.
Was just thinking what everyone's thought about this is.. Are C'Tans more powerful, the Chaos Gods more powerful, or are they about the same.
NOTE: I don't want anyone just jumping in saying "C'Tans kick Chaos God's a**" or vice versa without any fluff to back it up. This is to be a civilized debate/discussion, so no flame wars please! =)
Of course, this is ASSUMING that Chaos Gods will meet the C'Tan in a NEUTRAL area where both can exist without harm (i.e. not in real space or immaterium, make a new "happy land" up :lol: )
Here's my take:
My Vote goes to "They're about the same power"... why do I think that?
1. Manipulating their own space: C'Tan can manipulate real space as they please (Necron Codex), and Chaos Gods can manipulate the immaterium as they wish, so they're both masters of their realm.
2. Both can be destroyed, albeit very difficult: Chaos Gods are killed if no one "worships" them anymore (i.e. no more bloodshed, no more pleasure, etc...) or if some super psyker like the Emperor "kills" them (not exactly sure how this works, but supposedly the Emperor can defeat them). C'Tan can only be destroyed by 2 documented ways, Blackstone fortress (only 1 left) and by other C'Tans eating them. Otherwise, it's just their necrodermis being destroyed and their essence is still alive
3. C'Tan are "Star Gods", destroying planets and stars at will, and sucking life out of stars. They also know how to create anti-psychic stuff, like the Cadian Pillars, Dyson Sphere, and Pariah Genes. Chaos can creep into real space for a short amount of time (except for Warp Storms), and are anathema to the C'Tan... so I'd say they are tied there too.
So with that, I vote they're about the same... what do you think? :lol:
- Post Deleted in Chaos Forum -
- You should know better than to post the same thread in two forums -
- Knape97 -
In an out and out 4 on 4 fight I think it's quite likely that the chaos gods would win merely because of Tzeentch can use so many powers that are anathema to them. Other bonuses to the combat would be the fact that no one wants to touch nurgle and Slanesh can be really distracting.
On another note can someone actually give me a realistic answer as to why the warp is anathema to the Ctan?
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Knape97, is there no way to post something in the "General Background" anymore? There used to be a Background board, wasn't there?
Anyway, that's why I only posted the LINK in the Chaos Board, as I didn't want to start the same topic on two boards. Wouldn't it have been better if you closed that thread in the Chaos board so they would follow the link here instead of deleting it?
Please advise, thanks!
I have to agree with Vish. The C'Tan and Chaos are quite plainly tied in this "Happy Land".
However, in the long term the C'Tan will win. Reasoning?
The "Power Source" of the Chaos Gods exists in real-space, where they cannot go. Once the C'Tan destroy that "Power Source" (i.e all worshippers, hence all emotions, hence all living things) the Chaos Gods will be destroyed. The Big Four can't defend themselves against this very well due to their inability to send their less easily killed servants into Real-Space for any major length of time.
The "Power Source" of the C'Tan also exists in real-space, where they CAN go. To destroy this, the Chaos Gods would not only have to work together, but also use their less skilled servants (the living ones) to destroy it, something that, given the limited population of the CSM, the weakness of the more squishy elements of the chaos forces, and the vast amount of anti-immaterium weaponry the C'Tan have AND CAN USE in real-space, is very unlikely.
In summary, the Chaos Gods have to fight the C'Tan on their homeground, whereas the C'Tan just have to wear their opponents down from where they can't get them easily.
I agree with Revlid on all counts. Although my name here is Word Bearer Apostle, I have just started playing them. I started with Necrons and am truly loyal to the C'tan! My friends refuse to believe that the C'tan could stand up to the Chaos Gods, despite my use of the same argument Revlid gave. :mad: In the "Happy Land" however, its hard to call.
And to Sithjack, the Warp is bad for the C'tan because it gives people psychic powers. Its what the Eldar and several other races used to actually try to put up a fight when the Necrons first conquered the Galaxy. The C'tan dont like it because it is the only effective weapon aginst them somehow. And the Chaos Gods are the ones who control the Warp basically, giving them an advantage in that respect. Not only is it the anathema to the C'tan that way, but as had been mentioned, they control real space, not immaterium. ON another note, I believe I read somewhere that if a C'tan comes into contact with the warp, it is killed. Their is a thread somewhere called Ctan and Chaos i think. Look in there.
Last edited by Evil von Doomstein; July 6th, 2005 at 23:59.
I like the "power source" arguement... I didn't think of that.
As for Chaos players refusing to acknowledge that argument, if they come up with a better logical counterpoint, I'm definitely willing to listen. If they're just not agreeing for stubborness stake, then I say just be secure in your own belief of the power of C'Tan
Keep the good logic coming! =)
woohoo! I get to be devils advocate!
a fight between the two in "happy land" IMHO would lead to one possible conclusion. the Chaos gods consuming the soul of the C'tan. reasons why are listed below.
aside from the fact that they dont really die when the necrodermis is breached they at least seem to be very weakend as they can no longer effect matter untill they get a new one. otherwise there'd be things a nightbringer could do after it was destroyed to still help win the battle.
while the greater daemons are not quite a match for a C'tan the actual chaos gods must be much more powerful then these greater daemons as through out the history of 40K there has never been any record of a daemonic revolt overthrowing one of the big 4. this in my mind puts them easily above what the c'tans can do with their physical bodies.
C'tan specifically do not have any defense against psychic powers as anyone with a seer council knows. As such the chaos gods should be able to use some ability that utterly destroys the c'tans soul or whatever. many if not all of the chaos gods are in the habit of consuming souls on a regular basis and should be able to do so. I also seem to remember in some fluff I read about how the chaos gods tried (and failed) to destroy the soul of the emperor. if it was possible to that to him it should be possible to eat the soul of a weakened C'tan.
Some thing to think about with a fight between the two outside happy land is that you dont necessarily need followers per se to "feed" the chaos gods. they were started because of peoples preoccupation with certain aspects of life/death not because some group started a cult of worshipers for a god that untill that point didnt exist. so technically any life should be able to feed the chaos gods. worshippers are probably just bigger portions of food.
I had the impression from the Necron Codex that the reason the C'tans hate psykers is that it's a source of power they don't have access to, and thus can't easily combat.
That aside, I don't think that creating a middle ground will ever work from a debate standpoint, because each side will consider a middle ground in which their preferred group will win.
Although, even as a Necron player, the Chaos gods hold the Warp, and invade real space. The C'tan haven't managed to conquer all of real space, and they don't have another dimension to draw resources from (even if said resources are hard to get here permanently). I'd say that regardless of who wins in realspace and of the C'tans' success in closing the doors between Warp and reality, Chaos' home base will still be there, and thus they can't really lose.
It's one thing being the devil's advocate, but you seem to have gotten a few things wrong below...woohoo! I get to be devils advocate!C'Tan have no souls... they're not "life" as we know it (ones with souls and physical bodies)... they're just energies... Chaos Gods do not consume that...a fight between the two in "happy land" IMHO would lead to one possible conclusion. the Chaos gods consuming the soul of the C'tan. reasons why are listed below.I agree, that part I'm iffy about, not sure how powerful C'Tans are without the necrodermis... it's said that they can "destroy entire star systems" in the Necron Codex...aside from the fact that they dont really die when the necrodermis is breached they at least seem to be very weakend as they can no longer effect matter untill they get a new one. otherwise there'd be things a nightbringer could do after it was destroyed to still help win the battle.again, no soul, no eating soulemperor. if it was possible to that to him it should be possible to eat the soul of a weakened C'tan.Um, I'm confused... not any life can feed chaos gods... why didn't Chaos Gods exist until Humans came along? Slaneesh didn't appear until Eldar created him/her 10,000 years ago. It's all because Chaos Gods NEED lifeforms with SOULS to exist. it's the emotions that these souls have that creates the Chaos Gods. So no, not any life (e.g. plant or animal life) can sustain Chaos Gods, only the intelligent ones.Some thing to think about with a fight between the two outside happy land is that you dont necessarily need followers per se to "feed" the chaos gods. they were started because of peoples preoccupation with certain aspects of life/death not because some group started a cult of worshipers for a god that untill that point didnt exist. so technically any life should be able to feed the chaos gods. worshippers are probably just bigger portions of food.
If we seal off the warp, then the souls of the human/eldar will no longer be able to access the Warp, and thus the Chaos Gods will wither away... Read the fluff in front of codexes like Chaos, Eye of Terror, and on different websites... that's usually what is said.